"Rotate" a C 182?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Rotate" a C 182?
I was doing some mentor flying with two different C 182 owners in their respective 182s the other day. Both of these owners are multi hundred hour pilots on their aircraft, and have owned them for some time. In both cases, a primary purpose of the mentor flying was to refresh their familiarity with soft field takeoff and landing techniques.
For both pilots, (with my briefing in advance) I started the takeoff with 15 flap*, and the control wheel held full nose up, and slowly applied power to full. As the nose lifted (pretty well immediately) so the top of the cowl just met the far end of the runway, I simply relaxed some up elevator, and held that attitude with pitch precision, while maintaining the runway centerline.
In each case, the owner's apparent surprise that you could hold the nosewheel off at all at such a slow speed, was interrupted by their further surprise that we were now flying with no further fuss, or change in the aircraft attitude at all, after a happily short ground roll.
Both of these aircraft were just repaired from "nose" damage (and these were my post maintenance check flights). I reminded the owners that though robust, the nose strut of single tricycle Cessnas is still worthy of protection from needless wear and tear, and does wear out inside. For 182's and 206/210, that strut is carrying quite a load, so the less pounding it gets during ground roll, the longer it will last.
*I have found that for all tricycle single Cessnas the use of 15 degrees of fly seems to produce the most favourable affect of downwash over the tail, to make the elevator most effective in lifting the nosewheel off at slow speed - but be careful to not bang the tail tiedown ring on the ground, that can cause expensive damage.
So; I am generally opposed to the notion that a single Cessna should be sped down a runway with no pitch input until a mystical "rotate" speed is seen on the ASI, then pulled off. I know that a few Cessna flight manuals do use the word "rotate" in this context, and I find that disappointing. Happily those flight manuals do properly state a soft field procedure. It can be followed any time - and will prevent needless wear and tear on the nosewheel.
Consider "flying" your Cessna from the moment that you smoothly open the throttle on takeoff....
For both pilots, (with my briefing in advance) I started the takeoff with 15 flap*, and the control wheel held full nose up, and slowly applied power to full. As the nose lifted (pretty well immediately) so the top of the cowl just met the far end of the runway, I simply relaxed some up elevator, and held that attitude with pitch precision, while maintaining the runway centerline.
In each case, the owner's apparent surprise that you could hold the nosewheel off at all at such a slow speed, was interrupted by their further surprise that we were now flying with no further fuss, or change in the aircraft attitude at all, after a happily short ground roll.
Both of these aircraft were just repaired from "nose" damage (and these were my post maintenance check flights). I reminded the owners that though robust, the nose strut of single tricycle Cessnas is still worthy of protection from needless wear and tear, and does wear out inside. For 182's and 206/210, that strut is carrying quite a load, so the less pounding it gets during ground roll, the longer it will last.
*I have found that for all tricycle single Cessnas the use of 15 degrees of fly seems to produce the most favourable affect of downwash over the tail, to make the elevator most effective in lifting the nosewheel off at slow speed - but be careful to not bang the tail tiedown ring on the ground, that can cause expensive damage.
So; I am generally opposed to the notion that a single Cessna should be sped down a runway with no pitch input until a mystical "rotate" speed is seen on the ASI, then pulled off. I know that a few Cessna flight manuals do use the word "rotate" in this context, and I find that disappointing. Happily those flight manuals do properly state a soft field procedure. It can be followed any time - and will prevent needless wear and tear on the nosewheel.
Consider "flying" your Cessna from the moment that you smoothly open the throttle on takeoff....
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They are aeroplane drivers, not pilots. Loads of those flying spamcans; just go to any GA field and watch the 'rotate' idiots and the even worse '3-point-land' idiots.
All those broken nosewheel legs (check out the AAIB reports each month) are VERY expensive to repair (firewall damage, prop, engine shock loaded), and that affects the insurance all owners, even pilots, pay.
All those broken nosewheel legs (check out the AAIB reports each month) are VERY expensive to repair (firewall damage, prop, engine shock loaded), and that affects the insurance all owners, even pilots, pay.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with flaps approx 15 for a 182 to have a smooth "early nose lift off", but from experience prefer to use flaps 10 for 172 & 206 on short field T/O. I have the impression the nose and firewall at the 182 is comparably weakest for weight.
But, early nose up does increase drag, so you trade some short take off distance for the early nose up - which may be why Cessna did not write it in the POH. If you know exactly what you are doing and are absolutely sure ISA+T & DA are no issue for the runway you aim to take off, you may proceed on own discretion.
Most of the times, especially with the 182 T/O performance, you will have no problem to lift nose early, but be very careful in x-wind situation!
In the end, it stays a non-approved custom procedure!
But, early nose up does increase drag, so you trade some short take off distance for the early nose up - which may be why Cessna did not write it in the POH. If you know exactly what you are doing and are absolutely sure ISA+T & DA are no issue for the runway you aim to take off, you may proceed on own discretion.
Most of the times, especially with the 182 T/O performance, you will have no problem to lift nose early, but be very careful in x-wind situation!
In the end, it stays a non-approved custom procedure!
Agree completely with Step Turn 
Just spend some time at any GA field and count how many pilots don't control the elevator position (or ailerons for that matter) and then look at the accident reports as mentioned by Shaggy - who is of course experienced on tailwheel types and thus knows about ground handling...
Just spend some time at any GA field and count how many pilots don't control the elevator position (or ailerons for that matter) and then look at the accident reports as mentioned by Shaggy - who is of course experienced on tailwheel types and thus knows about ground handling...
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only ailerons or elevator position, the worst I see are not stable configured approaches and far too little trimming - very special at the heavier Cessna birds. If weather is not too bad, a well trimmed 182 or 206 does have no nose wheel issue at landing, but without proper trim ... o-m-g.
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: with bosun Blue Sky and the jenny haniver "Hot Stuff"
Posts: 106
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't feel I really learned to take off (or land!) until I did my tail wheel rating. The method I was taught is explained beautifully in this article by Budd Davisson of Airbum.com:
How Short is it Really?
How Short is it Really?
We’ll start the takeoff (we’re assuming a tri-gear airplane) as we normally would, but, as soon as the airplane is rolling fast enough that we sense some life in the elevators, we position the yoke aft of neutral and hold it there. What we’ve done is insert a nose-up command in the elevator before the airplane has enough speed to pick the nose up. Then, when the airplane accelerates through the speed required to unstall the tail and pick the nose up, we immediately release some backpressure. At the same time, we look over the nose and visually fixate on where the nose is in relation to the horizon and, from that point on, our entire focus is to hold the nose in that position.
Because the airplane is accelerating, if we don’t release back pressure and set a given nose attitude, the nose will continue coming up as the airflow over the tail increases with speed. What we’re trying to do is establish a slightly nose up attitude that positions the nosewheel something like six inches off the ground. Our goal is to hold that attitude firm, which will require us to gradually ease off the backpressure as the airplane accelerates. The first few times you do it, it’ll be a little counter intuitive because we’re actually moving the yoke forward slightly as the airplane takes off. The name of the game, however, is to use the nose like a rifle sight and absolutely nail it on a given position on the horizon and hold it there no matter what.
The net result of this little exercise is that the nose will come up, the airplane will run on the mains for a few seconds and will lift off when, and only when, the lift/speed curves cross and exactly match the environment in which the airplane is operating. It’ll compensate for every single thing having to do with the takeoff and won’t leave the ground until every factor is right. This is an instance where we can’t possibly know as much as the airplane does in terms of what is needed at that precise moment, in that precise location, with that specific airplane to safely leave the ground and be guaranteed of a positive rate of climb.
Because the airplane is accelerating, if we don’t release back pressure and set a given nose attitude, the nose will continue coming up as the airflow over the tail increases with speed. What we’re trying to do is establish a slightly nose up attitude that positions the nosewheel something like six inches off the ground. Our goal is to hold that attitude firm, which will require us to gradually ease off the backpressure as the airplane accelerates. The first few times you do it, it’ll be a little counter intuitive because we’re actually moving the yoke forward slightly as the airplane takes off. The name of the game, however, is to use the nose like a rifle sight and absolutely nail it on a given position on the horizon and hold it there no matter what.
The net result of this little exercise is that the nose will come up, the airplane will run on the mains for a few seconds and will lift off when, and only when, the lift/speed curves cross and exactly match the environment in which the airplane is operating. It’ll compensate for every single thing having to do with the takeoff and won’t leave the ground until every factor is right. This is an instance where we can’t possibly know as much as the airplane does in terms of what is needed at that precise moment, in that precise location, with that specific airplane to safely leave the ground and be guaranteed of a positive rate of climb.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the end, it stays a non-approved custom procedure!
"Soft or rough field takeoffs are performed with 20[degrees] flaps by lifting the airplane off the ground as soon as practical, in a slightly tail low attitude. "
It does not say that the runway has to be soft or rough to use this procedure! Yes, it will cost a little increase in required distance to 50 feet, but honestly, how often are these airplanes being operated in runways which are so close to the stated performance capabilities anyway? If you don't need to get out of the short distance, why beat up on the nosewheel by leaving it on the ground?
And yes SSD, I always wheel land taildraggers, about for the same reason!
For once we're all agreeing !
Certainly when the grass trip here in Sussex England isn't tooooo soft (far too soft now; I walked it today) I do the same with the tail wheel Rans S6-116.
It always is a pleasant surprise how soon she lifts off from starting with 2 of 3 flap stages set and stick held back all the way.
Naturally once just aloft one levels off to gain a sensible speed before climbing away.
The technique is principally aimed at doing my best to avoid nose over tendencies if/when she hits a particularly soft patch.
So no finesse required.
Landings at full flap allow squirts of power to select almost exactly where she'll hit the runway, that is avoiding the known boggiest bits. Then she's beautifully responsive and slow enough to not worry if one lands long as the worst area cuts 200 yds off available length.
Funnily enough in Summer I revert to conventional flat roll to about 44 mph then lift off, though why I don't always use the Winter method - shurely shorter? - I don't know.
mike hallam
Certainly when the grass trip here in Sussex England isn't tooooo soft (far too soft now; I walked it today) I do the same with the tail wheel Rans S6-116.
It always is a pleasant surprise how soon she lifts off from starting with 2 of 3 flap stages set and stick held back all the way.
Naturally once just aloft one levels off to gain a sensible speed before climbing away.
The technique is principally aimed at doing my best to avoid nose over tendencies if/when she hits a particularly soft patch.
So no finesse required.
Landings at full flap allow squirts of power to select almost exactly where she'll hit the runway, that is avoiding the known boggiest bits. Then she's beautifully responsive and slow enough to not worry if one lands long as the worst area cuts 200 yds off available length.
Funnily enough in Summer I revert to conventional flat roll to about 44 mph then lift off, though why I don't always use the Winter method - shurely shorter? - I don't know.
mike hallam
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have about 600 hundred hours over the last five years on my tail dragger Maule (my first TD airplane) . Upon buying it I was taught during conversion training that the approach and speeds should be flown at 1.3 of the stall speed leaving on about 1300 rpm of power all the way down into ground effect and throughout the flare, removing power only when I reached the tail end of the flare, this method retains a low descent rate and higher level of rudder authority for the entire landing sequence which is obviously handy in a crosswind. I landed the plane like this till about six months ago then I tried something different, same approach speed but killed the power about 50 feet above ground effect and gently but with increasing back elevator pulled all the way back trading the energy for lift prior to entering ground effect, as I enter ground effect there is next to nothing left, I'm now in the 3 point attitude with yoke and elevator trim all the way back with I assume the ground effect being the sole margin between remaining flying and a stall which makes her sit right down on the deck with with no flare or float and an extremely short and weak rollout. Getting the timing exactly right is very satisfying, if my timing is off and I feel I need a quick blast of power to arrest the higher than usual descent rate but delay it too long I get a sore arse, conversely doing it too early I get left hanging in mid air high above the strip with zero energy left and right on the edge of a full stall which is not a nice feeling. I've always wondered if the higher decent rate/ increased downward inertia is a better landing method in crosswinds than having the power on thru the flare.
I have just shy of 1000 hours in my TR182... what the OP describes is what I'd call a soft-field technique. On a normal runway I use 10 degrees of flap but just apply light back pressure to 55 knots or so, then a tad more pressure lifts things nicely without feeling like a rocket launch. I suppose you could call that "rotation" but it's not like an A380, it leaves the ground practically immediately.
I really don't think you can damage the nose gear on a takeoff roll (unless you hit something or there's a hole). The way you bend the nosegear and the firewall is in a badly bounced landing.
Personally I don't like the idea of holding the nosewheel way off the runway in a normal takeoff. It seems to me there is a lot more that can go wrong, especially with an inexperienced or low-time-in-type pilot.
For sure the 182 is all about trim. It's a delight to fly, and land, if you are ALWAYS in trim - including on short final. I imagine it would be a monster to fly if you didn't do this, though I've never tried (why would I?). Unlike say the Pitts where unless it's massively out of trim you barely even notice.
The POH says to use anything from 0-20 degrees of flap for a normal takeoff, though then it says rotate at 55 which is a bit early with no flap imo. When I practice no-flap takeoffs I find that it picks up nicely at around 60.
I really don't think you can damage the nose gear on a takeoff roll (unless you hit something or there's a hole). The way you bend the nosegear and the firewall is in a badly bounced landing.
Personally I don't like the idea of holding the nosewheel way off the runway in a normal takeoff. It seems to me there is a lot more that can go wrong, especially with an inexperienced or low-time-in-type pilot.
For sure the 182 is all about trim. It's a delight to fly, and land, if you are ALWAYS in trim - including on short final. I imagine it would be a monster to fly if you didn't do this, though I've never tried (why would I?). Unlike say the Pitts where unless it's massively out of trim you barely even notice.
The POH says to use anything from 0-20 degrees of flap for a normal takeoff, though then it says rotate at 55 which is a bit early with no flap imo. When I practice no-flap takeoffs I find that it picks up nicely at around 60.
Personally for lower time pilots I teach what n5296s described for the takeoff. Nose wheel steering is a control like any other so it seems sensible to use it. However that does not mean run level and then yank it off. With the trim set properly light back pressure through about 50kt will cause the aircraft to smoothly fly off with no further action by the pilot.
Keeping the aircraft straight during the early part of the takeoff is easy if the nose wheel is on the ground. As the aircraft accelerates the rudder is nicely effective as the nose wheel is lightened and you have the added bonus of being able to see where you are going. With the nose wheel off the ground the aircraft it is impossible to see ahead.
Certainly you have to know and be proficient with the soft field technique but I dispute that you have to use it on every takeoff, I certainly don't
As for the perrenial problem of bent firewalls and nose wheel damage, that is almost entirely a landing issue. The root cause is usually a too fast approach followed by a flat touchdown. When checking new pilots out on the C 182 I make a point of doing a run down the whole runway with me holding the aircraft in the landing attitude running on the main wheels with the nose wheel well off the ground.
I want the student to have the sight picture burned into his brain. I also won't sign off anyone as competant until he/she can consistently flare to a tail low touchdown.
Keeping the aircraft straight during the early part of the takeoff is easy if the nose wheel is on the ground. As the aircraft accelerates the rudder is nicely effective as the nose wheel is lightened and you have the added bonus of being able to see where you are going. With the nose wheel off the ground the aircraft it is impossible to see ahead.
Certainly you have to know and be proficient with the soft field technique but I dispute that you have to use it on every takeoff, I certainly don't
As for the perrenial problem of bent firewalls and nose wheel damage, that is almost entirely a landing issue. The root cause is usually a too fast approach followed by a flat touchdown. When checking new pilots out on the C 182 I make a point of doing a run down the whole runway with me holding the aircraft in the landing attitude running on the main wheels with the nose wheel well off the ground.
I want the student to have the sight picture burned into his brain. I also won't sign off anyone as competant until he/she can consistently flare to a tail low touchdown.
With the trim set properly light back pressure through about 50kt will cause the aircraft to smoothly fly off with no further action by the pilot.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point on the 15 degrees flap. I use this on the C210 where I need to leave the flaps halfway between the 10 degree and 20 degree detent for a short field take off. Obvious it goes without saying I watch to make sure they don't drop to 20 on the roll.
On my old mount, the 180K there was an argument for using 40 degrees flap and taking off in a 3 point attitude. I had a dozen ways of doing it but it was one method for very soggy strips.
On my old mount, the 180K there was an argument for using 40 degrees flap and taking off in a 3 point attitude. I had a dozen ways of doing it but it was one method for very soggy strips.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anything that you do which lightens the nose on takeoff, will result in an improved situation. When the nosewheel is in contact with the ground, it will be subjected to some wear and tear, though if it is hardly bearing weight, it will be less.
In addition to tire and wheelbearing wear, which is negligible, the inner bushings of the oleo strut will wear, and worse, the torque link pivot points are easily worn. The result will be progression to shimmy. The repairs to Cessna oleos are very costly, and easily preventable with care. I agree that firewall and mounting damage to oleos is reserved for landing events only, but the discipline to handle the aircraft nose light for takeoff, will extend itself to well handled landings.
Yes, there is reduced visibility with the nose up, but there is still enough. I have never found that you cannot still see the far end of the runway ahead of you with the nosewheel off the ground in any tricycle Cessna I have flown - it just takes some practice holding it there with precision. I find that owners, when they see how I treat their aircraft, are inclined to lend them again to me with little worry - A privilege I like to earn by handing aircraft well.
The application of precision pitch attitude control near and on the surface is moderately necessary in tricycle aircraft. Every other fixed wing aircraft landing gear configuration is going to demand much more attention to pitch attitude control. Taildragger, whether wheel landing or three point will demand some precision, and water flying much more so. Why not practice better skills all the time? (And reduce maintenance costs while you're at it!)
In addition to tire and wheelbearing wear, which is negligible, the inner bushings of the oleo strut will wear, and worse, the torque link pivot points are easily worn. The result will be progression to shimmy. The repairs to Cessna oleos are very costly, and easily preventable with care. I agree that firewall and mounting damage to oleos is reserved for landing events only, but the discipline to handle the aircraft nose light for takeoff, will extend itself to well handled landings.
Yes, there is reduced visibility with the nose up, but there is still enough. I have never found that you cannot still see the far end of the runway ahead of you with the nosewheel off the ground in any tricycle Cessna I have flown - it just takes some practice holding it there with precision. I find that owners, when they see how I treat their aircraft, are inclined to lend them again to me with little worry - A privilege I like to earn by handing aircraft well.
The application of precision pitch attitude control near and on the surface is moderately necessary in tricycle aircraft. Every other fixed wing aircraft landing gear configuration is going to demand much more attention to pitch attitude control. Taildragger, whether wheel landing or three point will demand some precision, and water flying much more so. Why not practice better skills all the time? (And reduce maintenance costs while you're at it!)
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is short field and then there is soft field.
short field nose up so aircraft rotates at safe speed.
soft field, take-off and fly in ground effect till safe speed to climb out.
Most US pilots wont get it as they are scared of gravel and grass or simply not taught it. I assume Canadians would get their fair share, although maybe that depends on where in Canada you live. Aussie, outside the major regional Class D airports a good 60-70% of your landings will be unimproved gravel/grass or ****ty bitumen that is worse than gravel. On said strips, soft-field is preferred not just for the safety of the gear, but just because its uncomfortable as hell rolling down a pot hole infested airstrip.
short field nose up so aircraft rotates at safe speed.
soft field, take-off and fly in ground effect till safe speed to climb out.
Most US pilots wont get it as they are scared of gravel and grass or simply not taught it. I assume Canadians would get their fair share, although maybe that depends on where in Canada you live. Aussie, outside the major regional Class D airports a good 60-70% of your landings will be unimproved gravel/grass or ****ty bitumen that is worse than gravel. On said strips, soft-field is preferred not just for the safety of the gear, but just because its uncomfortable as hell rolling down a pot hole infested airstrip.
I went back and re-read Steps first post, and then my own. I realize I did not pay enough attention to this comment from Step when describing the pitch attitude he was setting on the takeoff roll.
I would suggest that at the moment of lift off the technique I described
will result in pretty much exactly the same pitch attitude at the moment of lift off. The only area we disagree on is how to get there. He advocates immediate full up elevator at the start of the takeoff role where I described an initially level attitude with the nose smoothly rising to the takeoff attitude described later in the takeoff roll as the controls, particularly the elevator trim becomes aerodynamically effective.
I commented because Step implied that his method was the only "right" way to do a takeoff, an assertion I respectfully disagree with.
I also think it is important to note that in the C 182, with cowl raised so you can just see the edge of the runway the nose wheel will still be on the ground. A true full on soft field takeoff is best performed with a sufficient pitch attitude so that the nose wheel is just off the ground. This requires a sufficiently nose high attitude that there will be no view at all of the runway ahead. The aircraft will also lift off at a speed only slightly above the stalling speed and care is needed to hold the aircraft in ground effect until a safe speed is attained particularly in gusty winds or hot/high/high weight.
Finally one last nit to pick.
Step said
I think it is important to point out that while the C 182 is approved for up to 20 degrees of flap for takeoff, "all " single engine Cessna's are not. The POH for the C 150/152 and C 172/177 series specifies that a maximum of 10 deg of flap is permitted for takeoff.
We are in violent agreement on the general concept though. You should not be a passenger in the aircraft takeoff until some arbitrary "rotate" speed shows up at which point you yank the aircraft into the air
. Instead you should be "flying" the aircraft by proper and effective use of all the control surfaces for the entire takeoff and landing run and the taxi as well, if there is significant wind present.
so the top of the cowl just met the far end of the runway,
With the trim set properly light back pressure through about 50kt will cause the aircraft to smoothly fly off with no further action by the pilot.
I commented because Step implied that his method was the only "right" way to do a takeoff, an assertion I respectfully disagree with.
I also think it is important to note that in the C 182, with cowl raised so you can just see the edge of the runway the nose wheel will still be on the ground. A true full on soft field takeoff is best performed with a sufficient pitch attitude so that the nose wheel is just off the ground. This requires a sufficiently nose high attitude that there will be no view at all of the runway ahead. The aircraft will also lift off at a speed only slightly above the stalling speed and care is needed to hold the aircraft in ground effect until a safe speed is attained particularly in gusty winds or hot/high/high weight.
Finally one last nit to pick.
Step said
I have found that for all tricycle single Cessnas the use of 15 degrees of fly seems to produce the most favourable affect of downwash over the tail, to make the elevator most effective in lifting the nosewheel off at slow speed
We are in violent agreement on the general concept though. You should not be a passenger in the aircraft takeoff until some arbitrary "rotate" speed shows up at which point you yank the aircraft into the air
. Instead you should be "flying" the aircraft by proper and effective use of all the control surfaces for the entire takeoff and landing run and the taxi as well, if there is significant wind present.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Belgium
Age: 64
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I learned from a grass field. => The first thing on all take offs was to unload the nosewheel, maintain nose position, and fly the rudder and ailerons.
Strangely enough most pilots do not "fly" the ailerons until airborne and that can always be seen by the wiggle - waggle when the wheels leave the ground.
Flying "all controls" from the very first power increase is something most only learn when they start flying tailwheel airplanes.
It is part of what "scares" and overwhelms most during the tailwheel transition. => "Flying" starts at start-up, and stops at shutdown.
I can not remember the number of times I see beginning "tailwheel" pilots release the stick at touchdown.
=> Can be interesting LOL. Always be ready to take over.
Strangely enough most pilots do not "fly" the ailerons until airborne and that can always be seen by the wiggle - waggle when the wheels leave the ground.
Flying "all controls" from the very first power increase is something most only learn when they start flying tailwheel airplanes.
It is part of what "scares" and overwhelms most during the tailwheel transition. => "Flying" starts at start-up, and stops at shutdown.
I can not remember the number of times I see beginning "tailwheel" pilots release the stick at touchdown.
=> Can be interesting LOL. Always be ready to take over.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can not remember the number of times I see beginning "tailwheel" pilots release the stick at touchdown.
=> Can be interesting LOL. Always be ready to take over.
=> Can be interesting LOL. Always be ready to take over.
Directional control was lost pretty much as we touched down and I was onto the ailerons, rudder, elevator, and power all together as soon as I sensed it was going badly wrong.
The wing tip must have come within an ace of hitting the runway (I still don't know why it didn't) but I managed to get wings level, tail up, and full power on and we departed the hard runway at 45 degrees before getting airborne again. Calls don't come closer than that, and it taught me a lesson!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, BPF and I are in violent agreement (I like that term!). Anything you do to lighten the nosewheel early in the takeoff is better. I like nosewheel off earlier, but it's not a "gotta have" for a good or "right" takeoff. What I oppose is the notion that the aircraft is hurtling down the runway with no nose up control application, waiting for a number to be seen on the ASI, when then flying is commenced. "Fly it" from the moment you open the throttle - nosewheel light, or nosewheel off, as you wish. If you're on a gravel runway and/or the prop is brand new (as was one of the two 182s I was flying in), I like to get it as far away from the loose surface as possible.
My recent experience (because I was mentoring it and drawing attention to it, was that is was possible to see the far end of the runway over the top of the cowl with the nosewheel just off the surface. I was holding the plane in this attitude to draw attention to this. But, I'm tall, so this might not be the case for everyone.
I agree that more than 10 flap is not approved for the 172/152/150, hence my sneaky wording of "started the takeoff with...". Leaving the ground with more than 10 in those types would not be conforming to the flight manual - I'll leave that to pilot judgement.
Trim as you wish, I don't depend upon trim position indicators when flying a plane new to me, I just make it do what I intend, and trim control forces out as appropriate.
My theme is that held nose light, single tricycle Cessnas will not need to be "rotated", they will nicely fly off themselves when they reach a suitable flying speed. In doing it this way, there is no downside.
There is no improvement in steering because the nosewheel is on the runway an the latter phases of the takeoff roll. Once you're going faster than 20 knots, the rudder is doing it all anyway, as it should. The only plane I have flown with separate nosewheel steering is the Twin Otter - I could not wait to get the nose light, aligned down the centerline, so I could center the steering lever, and ignore it after that!
I assert the foregoing for single Cessna tricycles. Not T tailed Pipers, they can be a little bit startling if lots of nose up control is held in prior to a certain speed. Fly the T tail Pipers as the flight manual says...
My recent experience (because I was mentoring it and drawing attention to it, was that is was possible to see the far end of the runway over the top of the cowl with the nosewheel just off the surface. I was holding the plane in this attitude to draw attention to this. But, I'm tall, so this might not be the case for everyone.
I agree that more than 10 flap is not approved for the 172/152/150, hence my sneaky wording of "started the takeoff with...". Leaving the ground with more than 10 in those types would not be conforming to the flight manual - I'll leave that to pilot judgement.
Trim as you wish, I don't depend upon trim position indicators when flying a plane new to me, I just make it do what I intend, and trim control forces out as appropriate.
My theme is that held nose light, single tricycle Cessnas will not need to be "rotated", they will nicely fly off themselves when they reach a suitable flying speed. In doing it this way, there is no downside.
There is no improvement in steering because the nosewheel is on the runway an the latter phases of the takeoff roll. Once you're going faster than 20 knots, the rudder is doing it all anyway, as it should. The only plane I have flown with separate nosewheel steering is the Twin Otter - I could not wait to get the nose light, aligned down the centerline, so I could center the steering lever, and ignore it after that!
I assert the foregoing for single Cessna tricycles. Not T tailed Pipers, they can be a little bit startling if lots of nose up control is held in prior to a certain speed. Fly the T tail Pipers as the flight manual says...