BGA airspace open letter
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BGA airspace open letter
open-letter-concerning-airpsace-august-2015/
An interesting view from the BGA. Don't quite agree with the tone though, or that using the radio is a distraction.
Any comments/views?
An interesting view from the BGA. Don't quite agree with the tone though, or that using the radio is a distraction.
Any comments/views?
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Even for glider pilots, spacial awareness is paramount and a radio is the only means of communication in the air. Rather than a distraction I would suggest that radio contact is part of the awareness and without it ones options about knowledge of your surroundings are reduced.
Using it also helps others to be aware of you - unless you are really selfish.
What a peculiar missive in this day and age.
Using it also helps others to be aware of you - unless you are really selfish.
What a peculiar missive in this day and age.
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Quite so. It definitely sounds as if a strong individual view is being pushed, particularly the suggestion that Air Traffic Controllers need educating about gliders.
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I think that the part you are referring to was a caution about using your radio in a gaggle.
Having been in some 20+ glider gaggles, the radio is the least useful thing you have on board at the time.
Speaking to Scottish quite a lot of the time the guys and girls at the other end are great, One of my buddies gets queeried on his mode s alt fairly regularly, the tone is always gently surprised when he confirms fl120 or whatever he's cruising at.
Some local controllers do have a habbit of attempting to foist a service upon you in such a way that it feels quite rude to decline.
The tone of the bga letter was, I feel, that we are doing ok, keep it up.
Controllers are learning more about what gliders do and glider pilots are getting better on the radio.
encouraging glider pilots to engage with controllers seems to be improving things all round.
Having been in some 20+ glider gaggles, the radio is the least useful thing you have on board at the time.
Speaking to Scottish quite a lot of the time the guys and girls at the other end are great, One of my buddies gets queeried on his mode s alt fairly regularly, the tone is always gently surprised when he confirms fl120 or whatever he's cruising at.
Some local controllers do have a habbit of attempting to foist a service upon you in such a way that it feels quite rude to decline.
The tone of the bga letter was, I feel, that we are doing ok, keep it up.
Controllers are learning more about what gliders do and glider pilots are getting better on the radio.
encouraging glider pilots to engage with controllers seems to be improving things all round.
With regards to the service provided from air traffic, why not just use a basic service?
You won't get bothered much.
You won't get bothered much.
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when flying xc in a glider, most relevant info is on your usual frequency 130.4 or whatever.
speaking to local controllers means you change freq and loose the gliding updates.
if you accept a basic service you are then pinned to whatever frequency they use and subject to handoffs by them to the next set of controllers.
to be fair the issue is really with one airport which has aspirations for a huge increase in its cta / ctr.
Dual watch radio is a must have these days for serious xc in the UK.
The letter from the bga is really a reminder to glider pilots.
good to see a proactive leadership position being taken by the bga airspace team.
And congrats to them for the vast area in Scotland they have just opened up !
speaking to local controllers means you change freq and loose the gliding updates.
if you accept a basic service you are then pinned to whatever frequency they use and subject to handoffs by them to the next set of controllers.
to be fair the issue is really with one airport which has aspirations for a huge increase in its cta / ctr.
Dual watch radio is a must have these days for serious xc in the UK.
The letter from the bga is really a reminder to glider pilots.
good to see a proactive leadership position being taken by the bga airspace team.
And congrats to them for the vast area in Scotland they have just opened up !
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if you accept a basic service you are then pinned to whatever frequency they use and subject to handoffs by them to the next set of controllers.
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An interesting view from the BGA. Don't quite agree with the tone though, or that using the radio is a distraction.
I'm a supporter of talking to ATC on the radio when gliding (in the appropriate places). But remember what we're all taught - the priority is Aviate, Navigate then Communicate. Glider pilots don't have one of those noisy things at the front - the only way they stay airborne is by using their brain to put the aircraft in the right part of the sky. I've had a few occasions in the last year or two where talking to controllers has left me in a place where I'd rather not have been - I'd stopped looking at the sky for a couple of minutes!). And if I get low, and am scrabbling to stay airborne, that's where all my attention is needed - turning the radio off can be a help.
I also like the 'No service required' approach. I don't generally think a basic service is much use - controllers start trying to relay traffic information, but it's too general to be useful. Being told about a an aircraft five miles away doesn't help me very much - I'm more interested in the ones within a few hundred metres. All it says is keep a good lookout, which I'm doing anyway. Last week, flying in a competition, calling a US Mil a/f, and being told that there were a lot of gliders in the area was amusing. We sort of knew that. (this isn't a complaint - they were very helpful).
And the controller education piece is important - gliders behave differently to other aircraft, and it helps to know how and why (avoids requests like "maintain 3000 feet", which I've had).
Paul
12 Aug 15
To all glider pilots
Dear glider pilot
AIRSPACE SAFETY
UPDATE
Earlier this year we wrote to you with important information about airspace. This letter is an
update and
offers further guidance.
First of all, thanks very much for your contribution so far this year including communicating
with air traffic control where appropriate. We have received feedback that the number of
awareness radio calls at airfields with instrument traffic is increasing and the quality of radio
communication is improving. Geoff Brown’s excellent work on airspace files now makes it
much easier for us to see ATZs, frequencies and ILS ‘feathers’ on our moving map software.
That awareness really helps.
During meetings with the military this year, we have discussed a number of military/glider
proximity hot spots, including around Linton-on-Ouse, Odiham and Benson. Military airfields
are busiest during week days, many have procedural traffic and some have fast jet traffic.
The same precautions we take with their civilian counterparts apply including avoiding
overheads and approaches if we can, and talking to ATC if we can’t or are close by. Clubs
whose pilots regularly fly past Lakenheath are Mildenhall are liaising with USAF air traffic
controllers with the aim of improving awareness. As pilots, we can each learn which airfields
are likely to be busy and which are almost inactive.
We are trying to educate air traffic controllers about how, for soaring pilots concentrating as
they must on a number of tasks including staying airborne, radio calls can be very
distracting. The problems with using a phone while driving are well known. When providing
an awareness radio call, all that should be required from the glider pilots having made
contact is something like ‘For your information glider XYZ is 3 miles east of your airfield
climbing in a thermal at 3000’ and is then heading south. No service required.’ The better
informed air traffic controllers will simply thank you for the call. Others may attempt to
impose a service on you, which you don’t need to take if you are outside an ATZ or
controlled airspace.
A recent helpful discussion with Gloucester airport has identified that when the Cheltenham
East (CHE) TP is used by thermal soaring cross-country gliders, there is a potential for
significant disruption to approach or departure traffic. Any TP with an ILS feather across it is
probably best avoided. If it is offered a planned task, why not challenge that decision?
Thanks for taking the time to read this. As noted earlier this year, if we all follow good
practice, we can maintain risk at a reasonable level, demonstrate that gliders do not pose
the level of risk that some incorrectly assume, and have a much better case to oppose future
airspace grabs. In operating as responsible airspace users, we should always remember
that the old maxim of aviate, navigate, communicate (in that order) still holds true. There is
certainly no sense in losing situational awareness in a gaggle while fiddling with a radio. But
the more we can communicate responsibly, the less likely we are to come into conflict with
traffic which might otherwise look for more controlled airspace. Good pilots will strike the
right balance.
Kind regards
John Williams
Sarah Kelman, Andrew Roch
–
Airspace Committee
Mark Holden
–
Competition Committee
Pete Stratten
–
Safety
Committee
To all glider pilots
Dear glider pilot
AIRSPACE SAFETY
UPDATE
Earlier this year we wrote to you with important information about airspace. This letter is an
update and
offers further guidance.
First of all, thanks very much for your contribution so far this year including communicating
with air traffic control where appropriate. We have received feedback that the number of
awareness radio calls at airfields with instrument traffic is increasing and the quality of radio
communication is improving. Geoff Brown’s excellent work on airspace files now makes it
much easier for us to see ATZs, frequencies and ILS ‘feathers’ on our moving map software.
That awareness really helps.
During meetings with the military this year, we have discussed a number of military/glider
proximity hot spots, including around Linton-on-Ouse, Odiham and Benson. Military airfields
are busiest during week days, many have procedural traffic and some have fast jet traffic.
The same precautions we take with their civilian counterparts apply including avoiding
overheads and approaches if we can, and talking to ATC if we can’t or are close by. Clubs
whose pilots regularly fly past Lakenheath are Mildenhall are liaising with USAF air traffic
controllers with the aim of improving awareness. As pilots, we can each learn which airfields
are likely to be busy and which are almost inactive.
We are trying to educate air traffic controllers about how, for soaring pilots concentrating as
they must on a number of tasks including staying airborne, radio calls can be very
distracting. The problems with using a phone while driving are well known. When providing
an awareness radio call, all that should be required from the glider pilots having made
contact is something like ‘For your information glider XYZ is 3 miles east of your airfield
climbing in a thermal at 3000’ and is then heading south. No service required.’ The better
informed air traffic controllers will simply thank you for the call. Others may attempt to
impose a service on you, which you don’t need to take if you are outside an ATZ or
controlled airspace.
A recent helpful discussion with Gloucester airport has identified that when the Cheltenham
East (CHE) TP is used by thermal soaring cross-country gliders, there is a potential for
significant disruption to approach or departure traffic. Any TP with an ILS feather across it is
probably best avoided. If it is offered a planned task, why not challenge that decision?
Thanks for taking the time to read this. As noted earlier this year, if we all follow good
practice, we can maintain risk at a reasonable level, demonstrate that gliders do not pose
the level of risk that some incorrectly assume, and have a much better case to oppose future
airspace grabs. In operating as responsible airspace users, we should always remember
that the old maxim of aviate, navigate, communicate (in that order) still holds true. There is
certainly no sense in losing situational awareness in a gaggle while fiddling with a radio. But
the more we can communicate responsibly, the less likely we are to come into conflict with
traffic which might otherwise look for more controlled airspace. Good pilots will strike the
right balance.
Kind regards
John Williams
Sarah Kelman, Andrew Roch
–
Airspace Committee
Mark Holden
–
Competition Committee
Pete Stratten
–
Safety
Committee
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I often find having to use the radio very distracting in my job.
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I don't really get the 'soaring pilots must concentrate on a number of tasks besides staying airborne'. So does everyone else and they seem to manage the radio. I might add I'm a glider pilot as well as powered.
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Encouraging more glider pilots to obtain (and use) an RT licence would help overcome the perception that the radio is a distraction, and improve situational awareness for everyone.
Thing: I agree with you.
I speak as a military pilot, who did a bit of gliding in the past. Admittedly 15 hours or so, around 10 years ago.
When I fly aerobatics, I do so with a traffic service wherever possible. As to whether it's an annoyance, well id rather not crash into someone! Safety first.
I am happy to be educated, but I don't understand how a basic service can get in the way of flying a glider. Everyone on frequency (especially ATC) will know you're there. That's a good thing, surely?
I speak as a military pilot, who did a bit of gliding in the past. Admittedly 15 hours or so, around 10 years ago.
When I fly aerobatics, I do so with a traffic service wherever possible. As to whether it's an annoyance, well id rather not crash into someone! Safety first.
I am happy to be educated, but I don't understand how a basic service can get in the way of flying a glider. Everyone on frequency (especially ATC) will know you're there. That's a good thing, surely?
I agree with Paulishome. The thing about soaring is that its a very dynamic sport, and situations change constantly. Up at 5,000ft, cruising downwind under a stonking cloud street with an airfield or two within easy reach, there's no pressure and the radio's easy. Descending through 1500ft in sinking air over not-terribly-friendly terrain is an entirely different matter.
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But then you're into aviate, navigate, communicate Dave. No one would expect someone trying to pick a field in trying circumstances to be thinking about putting out a radio call. Although having said that I would rather be in an ASH 25 at 1500' looking for a field than an Arrow.
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The other salient factor is that gliders are often in a competition, not just enjoying a gentle cross country soaring flight. The pilots are among the most driven and competitive people I've ever met. An ounce of their attention not devoted to flying the glider better than all the others is an once of attention wasted.
I have flown with some of the signaturies of the letter - they are top notch people, some with careers in professional aviation away from gliding - and they know their stuff. It was a well balanced and sensible reminder to the gliding community.
I have flown with some of the signaturies of the letter - they are top notch people, some with careers in professional aviation away from gliding - and they know their stuff. It was a well balanced and sensible reminder to the gliding community.
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I agree with you there Heston but it's not an excuse to let basic airmanship go to pot. I know steam gives way to sail etc but being a bit more SA savvy will help us all; the gliding fraternity get to twirl around in their circles safely and I get to go where I want keeping well clear of them. I sometimes get the impression that by some sort of magic it's my responsibility to spot every glider in the sky while they go hither and thither hoping that I've seen them and if I get too close I'm one of those idiot tin can drivers who hasn't a clue and probably has his head in the cockpit twiddling his knobs.
I will repeat that I'm a glider pilot myself so see it from all sides.
I will repeat that I'm a glider pilot myself so see it from all sides.
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I think I agree with most of what's been said in the earlier replies.
Traffic service I understand. If I can get one, it's useful. You're getting usable information about other traffic, and you've been positively identified. But it's only available if there aren't many aircraft around.
But to get slightly off topic, what's the point of a basic service? I don't think it helps you avoid crashing into anyone.
As defined, IIRC, a basic service doesn't give any traffic information. But there is a tendency for controllers (without radar) to start passing vague information about the whereabouts of other traffic. It's of limited use, IMHO, particularly if there are five times as many aircraft around as that controller knows about. So the value of the information is low - all it's doing is taking up radio and workload capacity. And if the controller does know about all the aircraft they can't possibly pass useful information about them. Hence the 'No Service Required' approach.
A case in point. Last week I was in a competition which went past (and over) the Mildenhall CMATZ. About 40 gliders, many of whom gave them a call. It's what they wanted, but I can't see how it was useful - they probably didn't know who was who. Conversely, later on, when I was on my own, I received, (unasked, but welcome) what was essentially a traffic service and information about a PA28 which passed within a couple of hundred metres and a couple of hundred feet. But my glider is (unusually) transponder equipped, so that was feasible, and in that area, traffic density was low.
Paul
When I fly aerobatics, I do so with a traffic service wherever possible. As to whether it's an annoyance, well id rather not crash into someone! Safety first.
But to get slightly off topic, what's the point of a basic service? I don't think it helps you avoid crashing into anyone.
As defined, IIRC, a basic service doesn't give any traffic information. But there is a tendency for controllers (without radar) to start passing vague information about the whereabouts of other traffic. It's of limited use, IMHO, particularly if there are five times as many aircraft around as that controller knows about. So the value of the information is low - all it's doing is taking up radio and workload capacity. And if the controller does know about all the aircraft they can't possibly pass useful information about them. Hence the 'No Service Required' approach.
A case in point. Last week I was in a competition which went past (and over) the Mildenhall CMATZ. About 40 gliders, many of whom gave them a call. It's what they wanted, but I can't see how it was useful - they probably didn't know who was who. Conversely, later on, when I was on my own, I received, (unasked, but welcome) what was essentially a traffic service and information about a PA28 which passed within a couple of hundred metres and a couple of hundred feet. But my glider is (unusually) transponder equipped, so that was feasible, and in that area, traffic density was low.
Paul