IR(R) - Is it worth it?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Colchester, Essex
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IR(R) - Is it worth it?
Hello all. After I complete my PPL, I know I am adding the night rating because it would be lovely to fly at night (or so I believe), and it's not too expensive. I am interested in being able to fly in non VFR, and at some point (probably in 10 years), will go on to get my IR(A)... Is it worth getting my restricted rating to be able to fly in IMC in the UK? Does it have any major restrictions to it, and if so, what are they?
I apologise in advance to everyone on the forum as, now I have started my PPL training, there will probably be a lot more threads from me asking questions, either like this, or about the technical side to flying.
Thank you
T
I apologise in advance to everyone on the forum as, now I have started my PPL training, there will probably be a lot more threads from me asking questions, either like this, or about the technical side to flying.
Thank you
T
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it worth learning to fly by instruments? I suppose you could view it the same way you view the value of say buying a car with disc brakes with ABS versus bog standard drum brakes.
Do you need the disc/ABS to drive? NO
Can i afford the option ?
Does the Disc/ABS reduce the chances of things going wrong when conditions get bad? Yes
Is the extra money for the disc/abs worth the benefit of increasing you and your passengers odds of completeing the journey safely ? Up to you
I could go on and on
Do you need the disc/ABS to drive? NO
Can i afford the option ?
Does the Disc/ABS reduce the chances of things going wrong when conditions get bad? Yes
Is the extra money for the disc/abs worth the benefit of increasing you and your passengers odds of completeing the journey safely ? Up to you
I could go on and on
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Faversham
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it worth it? You bet your life it is!
Apart from the obvious point that you will no doubt save your life one day because you know how to get out of trouble, the IR(R) will open your horizons to a lifetime of flying. No more restrictions in marginal weather (except your own personal minima - choose your own carefully!).
When I got my (ancient) IMC it opened the world to me. I could go anywhere, and did. Thirty years later and I've still only logged 150 hours real instrument time, but just being able to get above the cloud, knowing I can get down at the end of the flight, meant the world was my oyster (at least a UK oyster).
I'm now thinking of doing the en-route IR and reckon that will give me everything. Don't hold back. Do it as soon as you can.
When I got my (ancient) IMC it opened the world to me. I could go anywhere, and did. Thirty years later and I've still only logged 150 hours real instrument time, but just being able to get above the cloud, knowing I can get down at the end of the flight, meant the world was my oyster (at least a UK oyster).
I'm now thinking of doing the en-route IR and reckon that will give me everything. Don't hold back. Do it as soon as you can.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you plan to go and get an IR in due course then an IR(R) is certainly worthwhile. However this route requires a mind set change. Many pilots see themselves effectively as VFR pilots with some instrument skills if it goes foggy out of the window. This doesn't really work.
You have to learn to fly using instruments all the time and look out of the window when it's not foggy
You have to learn to fly using instruments all the time and look out of the window when it's not foggy
I got an IMC in 1989, but let it lapse. I didn't stay current. A still-valid piece of paper, if you haven't flown on instruments for several weeks, and have only a few hours total on instruments, is for the AAIB.
Yes. For me it's one of the best courses I've ever done - I have a pile of notes here I need to knuckle down and study towards my full CBM IR, but for now, my IR(R) is fantastically useful for all the reasons said above.
However, it's only useful because I use it. If I didn't maintain currency in instrument flying, it would be of no real value in an emergency - and I have used it both planned, and unplanned. But the second I only got away with because I'd been practicing.
I've used it abroad also. No, you're not supposed to - but when stuff was going mildly aft-a-gley, the ability to say "I have a problem, could I take vectors to the ILS" was priceless, and ultimately caused nobody any trouble. The alternative - stooging around at low level to a diversion I'm sure I'd have succeeded in, but was a lot less appealling.
G
However, it's only useful because I use it. If I didn't maintain currency in instrument flying, it would be of no real value in an emergency - and I have used it both planned, and unplanned. But the second I only got away with because I'd been practicing.
I've used it abroad also. No, you're not supposed to - but when stuff was going mildly aft-a-gley, the ability to say "I have a problem, could I take vectors to the ILS" was priceless, and ultimately caused nobody any trouble. The alternative - stooging around at low level to a diversion I'm sure I'd have succeeded in, but was a lot less appealling.
G
Yes from me too. Over the course of my flying career, I've had quite a bit of instrument training (PFIG at a UAS, IMC rating and a Canadian IR).
I've never flown solo IFR, but have always felt I could cope in an emergency if I got trapped and had to climb in cloud. That is unlikely to happen though, given my innate caution and high personal weather limits.
However, a couple of weeks ago, when a checkout trip was scrubbed due to high winds, I spent an hour in a Redbird simulator configured as a Seneca. I hadn't flown instruments for many years and my instrument flying was not up to passing standard, but I managed to fly the ILS down to a 200' cloud base and transition to land.
So as the others have said, any instrument training is valuable, but you have to become really comfortable flying on instruments and figuring out where you are and where you will be in a few minutes time. The aviating bit has to become almost sub-conscious, so that you can concentrate on the navigation and communication bits.
I've never flown solo IFR, but have always felt I could cope in an emergency if I got trapped and had to climb in cloud. That is unlikely to happen though, given my innate caution and high personal weather limits.
However, a couple of weeks ago, when a checkout trip was scrubbed due to high winds, I spent an hour in a Redbird simulator configured as a Seneca. I hadn't flown instruments for many years and my instrument flying was not up to passing standard, but I managed to fly the ILS down to a 200' cloud base and transition to land.
So as the others have said, any instrument training is valuable, but you have to become really comfortable flying on instruments and figuring out where you are and where you will be in a few minutes time. The aviating bit has to become almost sub-conscious, so that you can concentrate on the navigation and communication bits.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absolutely. Apart from the added safety benefits if you're like me you'll enjoy flying on instruments. It's a different way of flying and has it's own rewards. Besides that, as I've said many times on here before one of the best moments in flying for me is ploughing through a crappy overcast and popping out into a fairyland of brilliant white cloud below you and azure blue above. It's worth the cost of doing it just for that.
However I stay current. I give myself a sixty day limit for approaches, if I haven't done one in that time I grab an instructor and go and shoot a few. Same with the IMC bit. Even if you have to go and search for some cloud to get on instruments with it's something you need to do.
However I stay current. I give myself a sixty day limit for approaches, if I haven't done one in that time I grab an instructor and go and shoot a few. Same with the IMC bit. Even if you have to go and search for some cloud to get on instruments with it's something you need to do.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did my IRR very soon after ppl.
It has probably already saved my life when in the air but it has probably also saved my life by encouraging more conservative weather minima, perverse though that sounds
What is more it sharpened up my flying immeasurably, eg professionalism of radio, not being shy of atc help, crossing controlled airspace etc
So yes, absolutely worth doing
It has probably already saved my life when in the air but it has probably also saved my life by encouraging more conservative weather minima, perverse though that sounds
What is more it sharpened up my flying immeasurably, eg professionalism of radio, not being shy of atc help, crossing controlled airspace etc
So yes, absolutely worth doing
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Colchester, Essex
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you everyone, I shall get it done when I get my license...
thing... you mention you set yourself a 6 day max, I gather you fly a hell of a lot then? And Genghis, you too? I will probably only be doing a couple of hours per month to begin with, whilst the money isn't rife. I hope to buy a share in an aircraft very soon, so if you know of any relatively cheap shares or groups in East Anglia, I would be very interested to possibly make purchasement...
Realistically, and I know figures vary hugely, but what is the 'average' dry cost for something like a 172, and how much in fuel does it cost per hour?
Thank you
T
thing... you mention you set yourself a 6 day max, I gather you fly a hell of a lot then? And Genghis, you too? I will probably only be doing a couple of hours per month to begin with, whilst the money isn't rife. I hope to buy a share in an aircraft very soon, so if you know of any relatively cheap shares or groups in East Anglia, I would be very interested to possibly make purchasement...
Realistically, and I know figures vary hugely, but what is the 'average' dry cost for something like a 172, and how much in fuel does it cost per hour?
Thank you
T
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't underestimate the role of flight Sim in currency. It's the scan that decays and with it precision, so flying some approaches on x-plane or Microsoft Flight Sim on a regular basis will help a lot.
Just set cloud base at minimums and tops above the level you'll fly and vis at 1.5 miles and off you go!
Just set cloud base at minimums and tops above the level you'll fly and vis at 1.5 miles and off you go!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thing... you mention you set yourself a 6 day max,
. It's not the actual flying bit of the approach I get rusty on, it's the procedures. There's a certain lingo and way of doing something like an NDB hold and approach and I don't like to be one who goes 'Err...' on the radio, I like to keep it sharp.
but what is the 'average' dry cost for something like a 172, and how much in fuel does it cost per hour?
This of course assumes you know how to operate the engine correctly. One of our club members took our 182 to Germany and he was getting around 60 litres an hour burn because he never bothers twiddling the red knob. It's like burning £20 notes. I fly an Arrow on occasion which usefully has a fuel flow gauge. The difference between running it fully rich at 3,000' and leaning out properly is around 18 litres an hour, or £27 worth of fuel...
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being able to fly on instruments will save your life one day.
Last edited by funfly; 15th Apr 2015 at 08:10. Reason: I almost lost mine (and my wife's) before I got my instrument rating.
If you were correct Funfly, the hedgerows would be littered with the bodies of VFR only PPLs - they clearly aren't. I highly value my IR(R), but I also managed happily without one for years, and for that matter have a lot of microlight hours - and they are just not capable of safe instrument flight. So, I think you're overstating the case somewhat.
Re: recency - I do fly quite a lot - my worst year out of the last 10 was 35 hours, and my best 110. This year I hope I might even beat 110. Since holding the IR(R), I have made a point of doing a reasonable amount of IMC flight when opportunity arises, and an approach whenever it's convenient to do so at the end of a trip. I probably manage an approach every 1-2 months on average: I've done four this year, three planned, one unplanned.
Unplanned IMC flight, or an unplanned approach, are incredibly stressful and hard work. BUT, they are readily survivable, so long as those skills have been kept adequately current. Even a planned approach is likely to be scruffy and sub-optimal without reasonable currency in your instrument flying skills.
G
Re: recency - I do fly quite a lot - my worst year out of the last 10 was 35 hours, and my best 110. This year I hope I might even beat 110. Since holding the IR(R), I have made a point of doing a reasonable amount of IMC flight when opportunity arises, and an approach whenever it's convenient to do so at the end of a trip. I probably manage an approach every 1-2 months on average: I've done four this year, three planned, one unplanned.
Unplanned IMC flight, or an unplanned approach, are incredibly stressful and hard work. BUT, they are readily survivable, so long as those skills have been kept adequately current. Even a planned approach is likely to be scruffy and sub-optimal without reasonable currency in your instrument flying skills.
G
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genghis,
I started off in microlights.
I remember well the microlight people, some of whom were very responsible flyers but there were still a number who flew on the margin, didn't believe in radio's or transponders or ATC etc.
These days responsible flying is important. A PPL should be seen as a starting point and, apart from you, everyone else seems to agree that instrument training makes for a better and safer pilot.
When someone asks the question "should they have instrument training?" then most pilots would say it's the best thing to do in order to progress to be a better and safer pilot.
FF
I started off in microlights.
I remember well the microlight people, some of whom were very responsible flyers but there were still a number who flew on the margin, didn't believe in radio's or transponders or ATC etc.
These days responsible flying is important. A PPL should be seen as a starting point and, apart from you, everyone else seems to agree that instrument training makes for a better and safer pilot.
When someone asks the question "should they have instrument training?" then most pilots would say it's the best thing to do in order to progress to be a better and safer pilot.
FF
No, read either my, or your own posts more carefully.
I absolutely do think that an IR(R) makes for a better safer pilot. It *might* save your life.
I do not believe that it *will* save everybody's life - many people manage to fly safely, without instrument training. That includes everybody who only flies microlights (and doesn't have an IMC related fatal crash, which is most microlight pilots, despite perhaps a few of their own best endeavours).
G
I absolutely do think that an IR(R) makes for a better safer pilot. It *might* save your life.
I do not believe that it *will* save everybody's life - many people manage to fly safely, without instrument training. That includes everybody who only flies microlights (and doesn't have an IMC related fatal crash, which is most microlight pilots, despite perhaps a few of their own best endeavours).
G
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philippines
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apart from the added safety benefits
Being able to fly on instruments will save your life one day.
Not always the case it seems, as four people in the UK have found out to their cost already this year!
I pay £96 hr for our 172's and Warriors, that's wet and brakes off/brakes on.
... because he never bothers with twiddling the red knob. It's like burning £20 notes.
Why should he? If it's a wet rental, he won't save any money by leaning.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pedant alert!
Shirley you meant to say "flexwingmicrolights ?
I think it's very important that people understand that a conventional, 3-axis "aeroplane" can be legally classified as a Microlight and still give considerably reduced costs. As a conventional airframe, I am sure they are capable of safe instrument flight.
Not often you make a careless slip, G.
and for that matter have a lot of microlight hours - and they are just not capable of safe instrument flight.
I think it's very important that people understand that a conventional, 3-axis "aeroplane" can be legally classified as a Microlight and still give considerably reduced costs. As a conventional airframe, I am sure they are capable of safe instrument flight.
Not often you make a careless slip, G.