Witnessing a crash
Sorry Pace
No airline pilot should slam it "on the numbers". If one follows the PAPI or the ILS glide slope (normally 3 degrees) to touchdown one will never be near the "numbers" but cross the threshold at about 50 feet and touch down no earlier than about 1000 ft in, 1500 being very common. This is true for auto land as well as manual landings. In fact "short landing ops (crossing the threshold at 35 instead of 50 feet and touching down only(!) about 700 feet past the threshold as opposed to the usual 1000 feet or more is only allowed for small aircraft where the wheels are less than 3 meters below the pilot's eye line (Air OPS) and where there is an acceptable clear area in front of the runway threshold.
No airline pilot should slam it "on the numbers". If one follows the PAPI or the ILS glide slope (normally 3 degrees) to touchdown one will never be near the "numbers" but cross the threshold at about 50 feet and touch down no earlier than about 1000 ft in, 1500 being very common. This is true for auto land as well as manual landings. In fact "short landing ops (crossing the threshold at 35 instead of 50 feet and touching down only(!) about 700 feet past the threshold as opposed to the usual 1000 feet or more is only allowed for small aircraft where the wheels are less than 3 meters below the pilot's eye line (Air OPS) and where there is an acceptable clear area in front of the runway threshold.
Where on earth do you get your 1000 feet and 1500 feet from?
skyhifallguy: Luton is one of London's minor airports with a single runway, 08/26; the photo is not there, nor anywhere in the UK.
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Been around the Airshow circuit for many years. 11 crashes witnessed, sadly 9 fatals. I got the impression at one point that disaster followed me around. Very, very sad. All caused by piloting errors bar one. [Structural failure, Ryan replica at Coventry. A weld failure causing the wing fold upwards.] Videod several, NTSB in the States took my tape from the P51 collision at Oshkosh 2007. Been to Oshkosh six times. Some very bad flying there, by the arriving spectators etc. some of whom, I understand, only fly their aircraft a couple of times a year, and Oshkosh at Airshow times is a very very busy place for an out of practice guy to be flying in, with, occasionaly, the inevitable sad result.
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go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads
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Pace, since you ask: from 20+ years as an airline pilot, much of that as a training captain, much of it based at Luton. No, LTN is not LHR; but if you want to try a short runway for a jet, go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads.
skyhifallguy: Luton is one of London's minor airports with a single runway, 08/26; the photo is not there, nor anywhere in the UK.
skyhifallguy: Luton is one of London's minor airports with a single runway, 08/26; the photo is not there, nor anywhere in the UK.
After an 18 hour day and posting my reply so late what a load of rubbish I posted )) On the numbers is a common phrase for getting it right ! on shorter runways and not holding off eating up a chunk of runway trying to get the smoothest landings ! The rest? I had brain fade last night )))
Last edited by Pace; 20th Mar 2015 at 18:27.
Quote:
go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads
go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads
After a fashion. "Full load" for some mid-afternoon flights can exclude some of the baggage, which is sent home in the evening when it's cooler. (But that's take-off not landing.)
I've been retired for a while, but what we did was load everything, and do a fuel stop, usually at Thessaloniki.
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Skyhighfallguy
You are quite correct that the Piper arrow has an automatic gear extension system but there was a non mandatory service bullitin a few years back giving the option to remove this system.
The SB was issued after an accident were the engine failed and the pilot did not make it into a clearing due to the gear auto extending just at the wrong moment.
You can also override the auto gear extension system.
In short you can't assume just because it's a Piper Arrow the wheels will come down automaticly !
The SB was issued after an accident were the engine failed and the pilot did not make it into a clearing due to the gear auto extending just at the wrong moment.
You can also override the auto gear extension system.
In short you can't assume just because it's a Piper Arrow the wheels will come down automaticly !
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733Driver
While you are 100% correct with all the theory the need to get the wheels on the runway and the speed breaks up becomes critical when you have a full jet aircraft and a Greek island, so the usual way of doing things ( in the -800 ) is to get just into three reds close into the runway and land flap 40 auto brake max.
It works well in the shorter places like Skiathos & Chambrey as worst thing you can do is float you must be in the vertical slot and on Vref...... No more !!
As you say no one try's to hit the numbers, if you did that at Skiathos the tail skid would snagg in the fishing nets on the boats in the harbour or the excuse for a barbed wire fence between the road and the runway.
Video for skiathos skid marks▶ 2:29
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtpZ6yujDFA10 Dec 2006 - Uploaded by pdm767
Landing a B757 in Skiathos...watch the crowd scatter! ... the skid marks going clean off the ...
With the truly spectacular stopping power of max auto brake the -800 will stop in about half the Skiathos runway, give me 30kt headwind and a think I could make the second turn off to the ramp. the only problem being making the next take off time due to the brake cooling time limits.
The skid marks at the upwind end of the runway are from an MD82 than came within an ace of going off the end and 50ft down onto the beach, aparently the pilot did not take into account the humpbacked nature of the runway and ended up chasing the runway downhill touching down very late....... Almost too late !
It works well in the shorter places like Skiathos & Chambrey as worst thing you can do is float you must be in the vertical slot and on Vref...... No more !!
As you say no one try's to hit the numbers, if you did that at Skiathos the tail skid would snagg in the fishing nets on the boats in the harbour or the excuse for a barbed wire fence between the road and the runway.
Video for skiathos skid marks▶ 2:29
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtpZ6yujDFA10 Dec 2006 - Uploaded by pdm767
Landing a B757 in Skiathos...watch the crowd scatter! ... the skid marks going clean off the ...
With the truly spectacular stopping power of max auto brake the -800 will stop in about half the Skiathos runway, give me 30kt headwind and a think I could make the second turn off to the ramp. the only problem being making the next take off time due to the brake cooling time limits.
The skid marks at the upwind end of the runway are from an MD82 than came within an ace of going off the end and 50ft down onto the beach, aparently the pilot did not take into account the humpbacked nature of the runway and ended up chasing the runway downhill touching down very late....... Almost too late !
Last edited by A and C; 20th Mar 2015 at 18:30.
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I never saw it done that way.
This was however before 9/11.
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I've been into Skiathos a few times as SLF, once during the Greek heatwave when people were dropping like flies in Athens in temps of 40 deg.
Everytime a full load and everytime stopping just at the turning circle (though I've always turned to the left!)
Apparently they don't refuel on Skiathos and as stated above stop off on the Greek mainland on the way home for a top up.
(interestingly we've never disembarked for refuelling).
Baggage came with us...
Bloody nuisance first time it happened as it bu**ered up our arrival in UK and our lift waiting for us.
Everytime a full load and everytime stopping just at the turning circle (though I've always turned to the left!)
Apparently they don't refuel on Skiathos and as stated above stop off on the Greek mainland on the way home for a top up.
(interestingly we've never disembarked for refuelling).
Baggage came with us...
Bloody nuisance first time it happened as it bu**ered up our arrival in UK and our lift waiting for us.
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Cusco
Get the aproach in the slot and on speed and you can get the aircraft stopped about half way along he Skiathos runway but you have to go to the end to turn the aircraft around.
Following the Boeing short field modification it was normal to get the -800 back to Gatwick with 189 pax direct, but it was far more fun to take the aircraft visually to the military base about ten min away. It's not often you get to fly an airliner for the whole flight without using the automatics.
Following the Boeing short field modification it was normal to get the -800 back to Gatwick with 189 pax direct, but it was far more fun to take the aircraft visually to the military base about ten min away. It's not often you get to fly an airliner for the whole flight without using the automatics.
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I have seen two crashes - one at Earls Colne a PA28 ran off the tunway taxiway after landing about 15 years ago and a Mooney at Bodmin that never got off the ground but ran right of the end of the runway, late 1990's.
No one hurt in either of them.
Sure that those suddent things are not so bad as the ones where one knows it's going to happen as in an engine failure.
The worst accident I ever heard about was a student in as I recall an AA5 in southern England, solo on a nav ex who had a mid air with a glider - glider ok but the AA5 gf wing tip smashed jamming the aileron counter weight. The student got 20 or so minutes speaking with ATC in a large turn before crashing, a rather nasty was to go I think - was in the 1990s. If anyone has the AAIB reference I would be interesting in reading it again.
Accidents happen all we can do is prepare ourselves properly to minimise the chances of it happening and train to minimise the consequences - for the next stage there is life insurance.
No one hurt in either of them.
Sure that those suddent things are not so bad as the ones where one knows it's going to happen as in an engine failure.
The worst accident I ever heard about was a student in as I recall an AA5 in southern England, solo on a nav ex who had a mid air with a glider - glider ok but the AA5 gf wing tip smashed jamming the aileron counter weight. The student got 20 or so minutes speaking with ATC in a large turn before crashing, a rather nasty was to go I think - was in the 1990s. If anyone has the AAIB reference I would be interesting in reading it again.
Accidents happen all we can do is prepare ourselves properly to minimise the chances of it happening and train to minimise the consequences - for the next stage there is life insurance.
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The crashes before my eyes.
Kiewit-Hasselt-Belgium.
Pits coming in inverted level flight at about 100ft, pushed up into an inverted looping. There was a slight hesitation on top of the loop, then he pushed to continue the inverted loop and smashed into the ground 100 meters in front of me. Pilot died.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
SF-260 lost engine power at about 250 ft. Tried a 180° and spun in. Instructor and student died.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
F-16 landing with a tailwind. Lost control on roll-out and ended up next to the runway. Pilot walked away unhurt.
Leopodsburg Belgium
Mirage5 climbed into the vertical after a high speed low pass. Came down out of the sun in a spin. We saw the canopy departing, but the seat did not have the time to go. The A/C smashes into the ground behind some trees. Pilot died.
Moulins France (RSA fly-in)
A Mini P-47 (Continental 100) lost control due to engine torque on take off.
Left the runway to the left and tore itself into a parked RF4 motorised glider. Pilot slightly hurt his head bouncing against the canopy frame.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
SF-260 lost control during a touch and go due to engine torque. Left the runway to the left and flipped upside down. Both pilot escaped unhurt.
Kiewit -Hasselt
ULM landing, simply flipped upside down after a bounce when he landed nosewheel first. Pilot unhurt hanging in his straps.
That's some 20 years of military and PPL flying in a nutshell.
My personals?
Had an engine failure in a D-120 due to suspected carb icing at 7500 ft. Engine restarted succesfully at 2000 ft.
And had to shut down an engine on a C-150 while in the circuit; Oil press dropped to 0. (Oil pump gear failure)
Had an oil line rupture in a twin engine BAF Merlin at FL 200. Pilot landed single engine in Yeovilton-UK. (I was a passenger on this one)
Pits coming in inverted level flight at about 100ft, pushed up into an inverted looping. There was a slight hesitation on top of the loop, then he pushed to continue the inverted loop and smashed into the ground 100 meters in front of me. Pilot died.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
SF-260 lost engine power at about 250 ft. Tried a 180° and spun in. Instructor and student died.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
F-16 landing with a tailwind. Lost control on roll-out and ended up next to the runway. Pilot walked away unhurt.
Leopodsburg Belgium
Mirage5 climbed into the vertical after a high speed low pass. Came down out of the sun in a spin. We saw the canopy departing, but the seat did not have the time to go. The A/C smashes into the ground behind some trees. Pilot died.
Moulins France (RSA fly-in)
A Mini P-47 (Continental 100) lost control due to engine torque on take off.
Left the runway to the left and tore itself into a parked RF4 motorised glider. Pilot slightly hurt his head bouncing against the canopy frame.
Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium
SF-260 lost control during a touch and go due to engine torque. Left the runway to the left and flipped upside down. Both pilot escaped unhurt.
Kiewit -Hasselt
ULM landing, simply flipped upside down after a bounce when he landed nosewheel first. Pilot unhurt hanging in his straps.
That's some 20 years of military and PPL flying in a nutshell.
My personals?
Had an engine failure in a D-120 due to suspected carb icing at 7500 ft. Engine restarted succesfully at 2000 ft.
And had to shut down an engine on a C-150 while in the circuit; Oil press dropped to 0. (Oil pump gear failure)
Had an oil line rupture in a twin engine BAF Merlin at FL 200. Pilot landed single engine in Yeovilton-UK. (I was a passenger on this one)
A Vulcan in a deep stall NE Of Boscombe Down in i think 1963/4. Went through the process of "that looks a bit odd" then rapidly followed by "sh*t" It impacted in a very small field on what was known as Chute Causeway. And then helping a crew member who had ejected after he got hung up in a tree on landing.
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This one Ebbie?
Ĺooks as if the post impact glider and AA5 info got mixedb together - seems that the AA5 went in very quickly after the impact.
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There are a couple of things that can be added to what to do. The first is get hold of the emergency serivices, you can always stand them down if it turns out better than expected. Secondly log the times that things happen. This will help an investigation and thirdly, write down what happened as soon as you can while it is fresh in your memory. It is surprising how much things can change. Lastly, bear in mind that the services on the ground, and the control room they are operating with, have no local knowledge so any help you can provide to get them to the right point will be good. GPS coordinates will help.
