Witnessing a crash
 

Hi All!

So despite the great deal of training that we go through for practising PFLs and EFATOs (which has been a hot topic in this forum recently), I can still concede the dread that occurs when it happens in front of you - even to another pilot!

To put a long story short, I was flying with an instructor to EGHH for some CAS practice last Saturday when an ever decreasing cloud base at Portsmouth stopped us in our tracks. We were returning back to EGKA and heard that same M word three times you never want to hear! G-CCHD; a Diamond DA40 had experienced an engine failure and was gliding into a field about 1nm north of us - perfectly visible from above. Despite the knowledge that the pilot flying it was experienced, you couldn't help but feel useless simply watching as his aircraft get closer to the ground. He managed to make it down (whilst ballooning a little) and survived a collision with a ditch at the end (along with 3 now recently deceased sheep) - though the aircraft was a write off.

VIDEO: Dog walkers narrowly avoid aircraft crash - Worthing Herald

Being a low hour PPL holder, I am always on guard to prepare for this sort of thing, but wonder how my abilities will stack up if ever actually faced with it. :bored:

It's made me wonder if any of you guys have witnessed another pilot crash and how it helped you with how you might deal with a similar emergency? :ouch:

It's not my intention to bring up bad memories of lost friends for anyone who has experienced it, merely a discussion that may prove useful to pilots like myself who still have a lot to learn!

Binner

It doesn't matter how good you are in a forced landing there will always be an element of luck.

Even the best pilot in the world cannot see a hole in the middle of a field or a bog or an animal running into the aircraft and there is always the chance that he might remove the nose so there will always be an element of risk in a forced landing.

The main thing is to always keep the aircraft flying as the big killers are stall spin accidents.
There are many reasons for those but one of the biggest is selecting a landing spot and stretching the glide to try and get there so never fixate on one landing spot but be aware of other potential if not ideal sites left and right of your track.

Be prepared to change plan if plan A is not working anymore.
In Aviation always fly with get outs never with all the doors closed and only one available to you because that is playing Russian roulette.

Don't fixate on landing into wind better to take a longer field with a 5 KT tailwind if its a better option. Yes ideally land into wind but in situations like that things are not always ideal.

Above all keep the thing flying and watch making steep turns without trading height for energy so try to keep the turns gentle

Stay calm as in a panic its surprising how all you have learnt goes out of the window and you end up doing crazy and fatal things

Pace

You make the best approach you can into the most reasonable looking field you can easily reach.

Aim 1/3 of the way down until obstacles are cleared; then add as much drag as you can until flare.

Trees are generally survivable if terrain otherwise hostile.

The key is to land under control.

As to bank, I'm happy with 45 degree banks because it gets you through the turn quickly, but we glider folks spend a lot of time in thermals:p

If you are current with PFAs, use the bank you've trained with.

My worry with shallow banks is the temptation to "help" the turn with rudder and maybe pull a bit back to hold altitude -- the classic stall/spin recipe:uhoh:

Yes, but did he have roast lamb for dinner? (sheep are known to leap into the air when a large possible predator flies suddenly close overhead) A field landing is an absolute non event for a glider pilot.

And Pace, your list of priorities....I would hope that even guys flying power would have an idea of the wind strength and direction while just flying normally...if it is a strong wind even a small field will do...IF you land approx. into wind. So it does matter. The bigger field the better, we remember to choose a field for SIZE, SLOPE, AND SURFACE. Surface... if you are an engine out plane with a 14 to one glide ratio, the field chooses you. But always if the wind is strong, try to land into wind.

As far as slope goes, uphill good, downhill sometimes hard to stop.

Binners 93, you observed the event, did your instructor advise the authorities that the pilot got out OK? I presume you circled the site to make sure.

I was asked once to search for a downed helicopter. Found it eventually, it had just landed normally, and they waved all OK.

Witnessed a few crashes, one of the "joys" of flying in the early days of microlighting and now running an airfield.

First is: rehearse what the vital actions are.

So when we had a crash the other month - fell out the sky 150m short of the runway - I told someone to phone 999 and ask for fire and one ambulance (I knew there was only 1 PoB). I then picked up fire extinguisher and fire axe and leapt in car (a 4x4) and headed for the field. Once saw PoB was out the aircraft I told him to switch off master, stand clear and wait for the foot people. I then returned to clubhouse, where person was still on phone to 999, and said cancel the fire and ambulance. 999 sent them - three fire engines, two ambulances and three or four police cars - anyway!

In the meantime, was had a solo student returning from a cross-country nav ex. So had to brief him on radio as to situation, and tell them to go around if it started looking wrong because of distraction.

Then there was phone calls and paperwork.

Second: once there is a crash, and you've witnessed it - stay calm. Be aware of the effects of stress, and take care.

Personally, I stop flying for the day.

To contrast: back in the day when I worked for HM I was out on the pan walking with three crews to their respective F4's. The circuit was busy and one 'Toom did a roller with what was obviously a broken donk as black smoke was streaming out the back. This was followed by two large bangs and two Martin Baker letdowns. The a/c flopped down a couple of miles away in a great fireball. (XV416, 1975) None of the crews stopped walking, no one said anything except one nav who turned to his pilot and said 'Weren't we supposed to be flying that one this afternoon?'

The other one I saw was at Binbrook, Barry Lennon was working up a display in an F3 over the airfield when he found the hard way that the ventral tank had feed problems in certain attitudes. Another MB letdown. Down comes Barry and he's whisked away to the med centre where all systems are found to be functioning correctly. First thing he did was get on the blower and call his OC with the now classic 'That one's broken Boss, can I have another one?'

binners.

I've watched a plane right out of engine overhaul, stall spin in the turn to base leg...the pilot broke his wrist.

I've watched a guy come in too fast and break off the nose gear, trying to force the plane on the ground. There was enough time for me to point out to my student that he was going to crash before he crashed. No injuries.


I've watched a jet crash in severe wx. 37 dead.


The trouble is I knew how to avoid each of these (and more) prior to the crash. And you probably know too.


So, what did I learn? That everything I had read about was right.

That you don't have to learn by crashing, but by studying .


One can also avoid crashes by the careful selection of aircraft, good preflights and examinations of documents to ensure the plane is well maintained.

So learn, but every situation you are likely to encounter, someone else has encountered before and it has been written about. Think ahead, look for places to land REGARDLESS of the type of plane you are flying.

Did you find out WHY the plane you saw crash, had an engine failure?


In 40 years of flying I have never had a complete engine failure, rough perhaps, reduced power a bit, but it never quit completely.

Engines quit because someone was careless somewhere. It is very rare that they just break apart. I am speaking of modern engines of course, including turbine, and post WW2 piston on the planes you will likely fly.

Check everything and always be ready, and you probably will never have to use your ADVANCE preparations. IT is when you are not ready, that bad things happen.

Mary Yes I absolutely know where the winds are :ok: all the time. Its the element we fly in whether landing or are correcting for enroute so every pilot should be able to feel those winds horizontally and vertically

But that is not the point I was making! One of the biggest stall spin situations is the poor guy/gal that fixates onto a nice into wind landing site to realise they have got it wrong and try to stretch the glide with increasing AOA and drag when left or right are acceptable alternatives which may not have ideal winds and may mean you take out a hedge or fence or ditch! but better that than stalling in from 50 feet

But really we are onto forced landings again which wasn't really what the OP asked. He was talking about witnessing a crash? I used to race cars in my 20s so we witnessed crashes and had crashes many times it was part of the occupation. Go to any circuit and most spectators will go to corners where they will see cars crashing its part of the excitement or thrill! Someone being injured or killed was a different experience and the crowds would go quite and become visibly upset.

As for pilots or racing drivers we don't like to see someone injured or killed because it makes us aware of our own vulnerability! We love to think that the pilot was an idiot an accident waiting to happen because we would never be like that and as such would never end up the same way.

when its a good pilot or one we consider better than us in a sound well kept and equipped aircraft then its a different matter now we are aware and feel vulnerable as there for the grace of God go I ?

Its probably a good thing as in that state of awareness we are more alert to the mistakes made and learn.
its strange how fatal accidents threads get so many hits one side saying don't discuss it wait for the AAIB reports.

i am in the camp which says yes lets discuss such accidents as its only by discussion taking the accidents apart rightfully or wrongfully that we are open to learn. And only when the accidents are fresh in our minds.

A year later when the AAIB report comes out its long forgotten and no one is interested.


Pace

No point being fixated on the wind, would you rather land with a ten knot tailwind into a 1000 metre meadow or a ten knot headwind into a 300 metre ploughed field? Field selection (with of course a nod to the wind if appropriate and if you have time) is all.

Better of course to land with a headwind into the 1,000 metre meadow but it doesn't always pan out like that.

Cleared a Seven-Two to land once, but it ran out of sky on short final, 69 dead. Difficult to witness in 100m FZFG...

Not many 1,000 metre meadows around where I do my flying, so your example is a bit extreme.

Be careful not to underestimate the benefit from landing into wind. An aircraft with a 70kt groundspeed has almost twice the kinetic energy that the same aircraft has with a 50kt groundspeed. That energy has to go somewhere and could make all the difference in a real world scenario.

I'm not at all. Just saying that in extremis and given the choice of landing downwind into a long flat field and upwind into a short lumpy field I would take the former. Just don't do it by rote that's all, 'I have an engine failure, I must land into wind' isn't always the best way, every situation is different. Plenty of very big fields up here, if I were flying where there were a lot of very little fields then I would be into wind as there would be no advantage in doing otherwise.

Well, it depends on the wind strength, doesn't it! No doubt I have told this story before, but when I was having a check ride in my Supercub with a guy who checks out pilots in Boeings, (one of the best supervisors in the UK, IMHO,) he pulled power back when we were about 3,000 over Banbury.

"There you go, sick engine. What are you going to do about it?"

Well, going back to the home airfield, the wind was behind us, but not strong at all at all. Helpful, however. I didn't have enough power to maintain height, and we were in a slow descent. So in reach of the gliding club, I landed straight in, downwind. No problem.

He had been planning to pull the power back entirely if I had tried to fly a normal circuit!

The point is, be aware of wind strength and direction. Its good to know.

But the last place you want that energy going is vertically into the ground and you attached to it!!

Of course and into wind landing is far far preferable but if you are going for your interwind field and realise you have got the glide wrong to make it and there is a line of trees in front you need to clear do you pull back and try to stretch the glide to clear the trees with fingers crossed or take an adequate field which isn't into wind on your left or slightly behind?

Never fly committed to one course of action always be thinking of other options in case that one door closes on you! and be prepared to change in a blink to plan B. If you enter a room and there is only one door and that one door slams locked you are stuffed.

I know what my choice would be

Pace

Witnessing a crash is always sobering and sometimes very sad. Here is my experience:

Attending my first Oshkosh Airshow at 17 years of age, a two-place home-built spun in on a tight turn to final 200 yards from me. Two dead. I still remember the "thunk" when it hit.

Draftsman at my first real job was working on his PPL, lost an engine and did a great landing into a cornfield. He just pointed it forward and kept up airspeed.

Friend died at an airshow. Pyrotechnic wire bound up in an aileron bellcrank. That was a guy you always learned from when you were just having coffee with him at the airport, and he is sorely missed.

Another acquaintance spun in inverted with a Pitts.


Aviation is one of the most rewarding things man can do, but it is also very unforgiving. I know for a fact that my primary and later instructors kept me alive by telling me the most basic things, but they are still the important ones. I hope to never see another crash as there is always that retrospective and contemplative period that follows.

My instructor says "if you're going to crash try and do it the right way up going as slow as possible". Wise words.

I think they are attributed to the late great Neil Williams.

Vick

so with my scenario above would you fly into a headwind as slow as possible into the line of trees or take an unobstructed field on your left with a 5 KT tailwind factor ? even if that field had a fence 350 meters at the end
Ie hitting the trees with the headwind at 50 KTS or running through the fence at maybe 20 KTS and remember once on the ground you still have directional control to even spin the aircraft if need be or avoid objects

Interested in your course of action ;)

Pace

5 knots tailwind not a lot. of course it is better to stuff it in the hedge at the end of the ground run, rather than stuff it in the trees at 80 knots. Or get dumped by a wire between the trees that grabbed your plane.

Going back to the original question, if you witness a crash and can help, you help. Sensibly. Good thing about gliders crashing, they seldom burn.
But my own first aid training and experience says don't move somebody who is in pain, you can make an injury worse. Which makes a problem if there is avgas or jetfuel involved....in that case, move him!

And if you like to be ready to be of use, carry a fire extinguisher in your car.
The 999 call is first priority...it is just amazing how quick the emergency chaps turn up when you mention plane crash...and how many turn up! fire engines, helicopters, the lot!

Few years back, I was at the hold after a short visit to Stapleford. When we landed, we had been warned there was a tailwind component (why we weren't landing the other way, I don't know) and I had been surprised by the effect. Anyway, similar warning went out to an AA5 on short finals. As I watched him sail overhead, I just knew it wasn't going to make it. Despite this, he landed way down the runway and tried to stop...and then tried to go-round..but failed and ended up hopping over a hedge and collapsing the castoring nose-wheel. All managed to evacuate OK but it brought home to me the very different feeling that a 'slight' tailwind component brings when it hasn't been experienced before.

Booking out at Liverpool some years ago I noted a tailwind of about 5 knots, runway 27 in use. "Any chance of a runway change to 09?" I asked the controller. "We have to co-ordinate with Manchester to do that or the traffic flows don't work. They don't have quite so much of a tailwind and a lot of aircraft vectoring for a westerly approach".

It wouldn't make much difference taking off on such a ginormous runway, but it would have been nice to be able to land without a tailwind. The tailwind was slightly stronger on my return, still on 27, but all went well.