The flare

[BroomstickPilot]

Holding off.

Hi Pace,

Now you've got me worried: please enlighten me.

...or holding off till the aircraft stalls onto the runway it bothers me a lot.

I was taught specifically to do this fifty-five years ago by an ex RAF instructor who had spent much of the war flying heavy, multi-engined tail-draggers. (I myself was learning in an Auster Autocrat J1 tail-dragger).

Subsequently, I flew in a Chipmunk on occasion with two or three more ex RAF pilots (although one of these had been trained during the war by the US Navy at Pensacola and another by the USAAF in Arizona). All these guys landed in this fashion. None of them commented when I landed in this fashion.

In fact it was only in the mid naughties that anybody even commented to me on this practice. That was at one specific flying establishment where the chief instructor, who closely controlled training standards, was someone most of whose professional career had been on fast jets.

So is there some objection to holding off, that has only come to light in recent years, that I haven't heard about? What's wrong with holding off until the aircraft stalls onto the runway?

Please advise.

BP.

[Pace]

So is there some objection to holding off, that has only come to light in recent years, that I haven't heard about? What's wrong with holding off until the aircraft stalls onto the runway?

Nothing wrong with holding off on a nice calm day when the birds are singing the sun is shining and you have a nice long runway and it doesn't matter if you hit the numbers

A bit different when the wind is 90 degrees across 10 KTS gusting 25 KTS with wind shear

Horses for courses as they say

whose professional career had been on fast jets.

( I bet that instructor didn't hold those off )

There are many ways to land an aircraft some pretty some not so pretty but as in any aspect of flying you should have the skills to dip into what ever the conditions require not just one and it could be that HOLDING OFF is the very worst thing you can do. We are conditioned to land at or near the stall great the stopping distance will be good but pretty pointless if you have used up 1/3 of the runway getting to that stage or if a down draught means your stall happens sooner than you would like

Pace

[foxmoth]

Broomstick,
I think you will find you are not actually stalling it on - I have flown Chippie, Auster a number of Moths and many other taildraggers. If you stall these aircraft you will find that they show the classic stall symptoms of light buffet before the stall, also the nose has been higher at the stall than the three point attitude,on the occasions this has happened on landing it has NOT been a good one but a drop on from a few inches and you certainly notice the difference. A good landing is slightly above the stall, but only just, at this point the drag is increasing more rapidly and lift increasing at a very low rate with increased AoA and if you get it right lets the aircraft descend at just the right rate for a smooth landing.

[BroomstickPilot]

Holding off again.

Hi Pace,

Thank you for replying so promptly.

A bit different when the wind is 90 degrees across 10 KTS gusting 25 KTS with wind shear

Under those conditions, I was taught to use a wheeler landing following from either a crabwise or a wing down approach.

The ex-fast jets chief instructor by contrast taught me, when landing cross wind, to approach with into-wind wing down and then do a two-point landing onto my into-wind main U/C member and tail-wheel. A method I had never even seen before and now consider safe only for light to nearly moderate cross winds.

I also consider this method to have been largely responsible for the very first ground loop I ever experienced as when doing it I was caught by a cross-wind gust when my tail was down in a landing attitude. This meant I had reduced rudder authority with which to keep straight and I was unable, when power was applied, to accelerate anywhere nearly as quickly as would have been possible had I been tail-up doing a wheeler.

I bet that instructor didn't hold those off

My point precisely Pace. When it comes to the advisability of 'holding off' I prefer to accept what I was taught by a WW2 Wellington pilot rather than someone whose Hunter/Javelin/Lightning didn't need to be held off and who, when I asked to revise wheelers, just walked away.

Foxmoth.

Thank you for your very interesting comment. After careful thought I am beginning to think that perhaps this whole subject is rather a nice point; (using the word 'nice' in its proper meaning). Like you, I too have flown the Tiger Moth and as we both know when landing you release the wing slats so that they can open and allow your wing angle of attack to increase beyond the normal 15 or so degrees at which it should otherwise stall. The slats being effectively sucked out as the stall process commences.

Hitherto I should have said that this proves that the condition of the wing when touching down is stalled. Especially with straight wings (well the upper main-plane anyway) which have a gradual stall characteristic, so perhaps the stall is indeed still incomplete as you first touch down for a three point landing. But this still doesn't dissuade me from holding off when landing as long as the wind is pretty near straight down the runway.

Thanks guys.

BP.

[Pace]

BP

What works for you In Geneva a few weeks ago flying the Citation I wanted a chairmans landing for the PAX and with that huge runway I too held the jet off to get a touchdown where you could not even feel the aircraft touch. Admiring glances from the PAX on what was great conditions to do that and an easy landing.

Much harder at night with severe windshear and crosswinds and driving rain where a much more skill full landing is required and a firmer arrival with no admiring glances from the PAX
Oh well PAX know little and ask why the wings are going up and down on the approach rather than rock steady on the easy day ))

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Just to confirm that when you 3-point a Chippie (gradually increasing AoA close to the ground until it sinks on gently despite further back stick) the aeroplane is not stalled. It's getting close, hence the sink and the 'no climb with further back stick', but it hasn't reached buffet, let alone departure.

A nose-higher attitude than 3-point is required to achieve that.

I understand not many aeroplanes reach the stall angle at 3-point. One that does is the Rapide, which can tip-stall with its elegant wing shape so is generally wheeled on (never flown a Rapide, but a guy who did told me this).

[foxmoth]

this still doesn't dissuade me from holding off when landing as long as the wind is pretty near straight down the runway.

I should hope not and was certainly not what I was suggesting! A Taildragger properly three pointed will normally be close enough to the stall that it is generally not going to get flying again, that can of course happen in very gusty conditions and as you say is when a wheeler landing that is placed onto the runway when you are ready may be the better option.

[Discorde]

Just to confirm that when you 3-point a Chippie (gradually increasing AoA close to the ground until it sinks on gently despite further back stick) the aeroplane is not stalled. It's getting close, hence the sink and the 'no climb with further back stick', but it hasn't reached buffet, let alone departure.

A nose-higher attitude than 3-point is required to achieve that.

Correct. Also the stall is delayed by the enhanced lift deriving from ground effect.

[Piper.Classique]

A wheeled on landing with conventional gear happens quite a lot above stalling speed.
Mr Langweisch talks about plastering it on, which is a pretty good description of what you are doing.

[Pace]

We still talk of stalling it on or being just above the stall as if this was a requisite of landing an aircraft? It maybe the norm and I don't dispute that but an aircraft can be flown on!

At or near the stall will obviously use up less of the runway as long as you hit the numbers but there are conditions where you really do not want to be in the air near the stall!

I gave a ridiculous but real situation where a pilot landed a Citation with a radar determined landing speed of 200 KTS when it's normal VREF was 105 KTS
They remained on the runway intact at Edinburgh

Ok ridiculous situation to make a point but one which disaccociates the idea of at or near the stall as the only way to land an aircraft

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

If you 'wheel' a Chippie on tail high, you are a very long way from stall AoA at the point of touchdown.

[9 lives]

I agree that a "flare" in a taildragger wheel landing, or flying boat landing is a much different event than in a tricycle aircraft. Indeed, in my taildragger, there will be no flare, I will wheel it on every time, and on contact, the stick goes fully forward, and is held there until I taxi off. This does result in a longer rollout, but not so as to be a problem in 1400 feet of runway, without using brakes.

The flare is pronounced, if from a power off approach, but the flare will not be followed through to a stall landing, but rather arrest descent, then fly it on.

Similarly, if you flare and stall on a flying boat, you're in for a ride. It'll work, but it will be messy. Once on the water, the stick goes well forward, and is held until the plane settles into displacement.

I did do testing in a modified Caravan, which required three point landings, so there was little flare. That was rather uncomfortable, and I eventually demonstrated that a stall landing was possible without banging the protruding mod, so the original landing technique was specified.

But, in the context of improving landing technique, getting to know the flare better, an being comfortable there is a good thing. For me, in any single Cessna, the landing will be full flap, an as close to full stall as I can get, regardless of the wind. If the crosswind is so strong that I cannot hold position as intended during landing, I won't land. I have no recollection of ever given up a landing due to a crosswind.

[mary meagher]

The flare. or roundout, some calls it. Aim at the ground but don't bend the aircraft! Taildraggers vs nosewheel, landing on water, managing microlights...

This critical maneuver need practice, lots of practice. It is a LOT easier to manage now they have stuck the little wheel on the front instead of the back!
So Piper and Cessna and most airliners could then install, instead of a stick attached to ailerons and elevator, a WHEEL - or yoke - so the nervous pilot could imagine it was as simple as driving a car, and felt more at ease.

The more landings the better, so the cheapest way to become proficient is to learn at a gliding club with winch launches costing as little as £8 each. I couldn't even imagine how many landings I have carried out over the past 38 years....and yet in my dear old Supercub taildragger, still got it wrong on my very last power flight, when delivering it over to White Waltham. In front of the entire congregation there, with the WW CFI sitting in the back seat, something went wrong with the flare, or whatever, and it BOUNCED.

As I learned on gliders, going around is not an option in my kinetic memory, so I just kept things more or less level and waited until GOFER settled down in a reasonable fashion. The CFI in the back seat refrained from comment.
The critics sitting round in the sunshine smiled knowingly. How embarassing.

All those landings and still bounced the last one!

[Pilot DAR]

All those landings and still bounced the last one!

That's just 'cause the sky was not ready to give you up yet Mary!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by mary meagher

All those landings and still bounced the last one!

That is because airplanes have a sense of humour.........Unfortunately it is a cruel sense of humour.

[skyhighfallguy]

another way of looking at the flare:


OFF of a stablized power on approach, as the plane's wings are entering ground effect, reduce power , but pitch to maintain the desired flight path, trading speed for the distance you need to cover. The nose is coming up and if properly timed you touch down in the proper attitude.

for this purpose, half the wingspan should be considered the distance where ground effect comes into play.

[9 lives]

Ground effect often comes into play. I generally see it as being something which has to be dealt with, rather than being beneficial - sort of like a crosswind.

If you have chosen to carry power into the flare, closing the throttle as you enter ground effect for that aircraft type can have pleasing results, but takes good familiarity with the type. The purist in me says that carrying power down the latter stages of final approach will distract the pilot from learning the feel of that aircraft. Certainly some approaches call for power, usually based on traffic, and the traffic pattern, but don't overlook the benefits in skill development from practicing power off final and flare, when the operating environment permits.

The differences in the response of a type to ground effect are worthy of awareness. Types like a Tomahawk, Ercoupe and light Cherokees react to it, for obvious reasons. This may make bounced landings more common in these types. On the other end of the scale, in a heavy Cessna amphibian on a runway, there is little effect - perhaps part of the reason these types seem to suffer more hard landings.

[mary meagher]

Flying a rented 3 seat Piper (so not exactly a Cub, but sort of looked like one)
with an instructor to check me out in it, on approach in a 20 mph wind to a short runway at the local Annapolis Maryland Airport, a few years back....

Whichever model Cub it was, the speed was stately, to put it mildly. Possible ground speed say 50 mph? Cars on the road below passing us in droves.
And suddenly so did a US Navy trainer, fed up with hanging on the prop behind such slowpokes. Rather rude, I thought, cutting in front of somebody on final without warning!

Anyhow the Navy plane planked it, slammed down on the Annapolis tarmac....and his main wheels collapsed!

Somehow we were not upset to fly elsewhere for a while while they cleared up the runway. Carrier landings indeed!

[barit1]

rented 3 seat Piper

Could be the J-5 (prewar, open cylinders like the Cub), or PA-11 or PA-12 Super Cruiser.