power on stalls - some help would be lovely!
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Now I see the problem.
With washout, the ailerons will work fine as long as you don't let the wing stall completely.
Recovery should be done at aerodynamic buffeting (assuming buffeting is part of the stall, there are some planes which have insufficient buffeting to qualify here. Certainly the light planes we are talking about C172, PA28 etc qualify))
so, you hear the stall warning, feel the first nibble of the buffet, recover now and there is no question the ailerons will work.
allow the stall to progress to the entire wing and you see problems.
Recover at the first indication of a stall.
Don't hold the plane in the stall.
Read "stick and rudder" rather than spend too much time on pprune.
bye now
With washout, the ailerons will work fine as long as you don't let the wing stall completely.
Recovery should be done at aerodynamic buffeting (assuming buffeting is part of the stall, there are some planes which have insufficient buffeting to qualify here. Certainly the light planes we are talking about C172, PA28 etc qualify))
so, you hear the stall warning, feel the first nibble of the buffet, recover now and there is no question the ailerons will work.
allow the stall to progress to the entire wing and you see problems.
Recover at the first indication of a stall.
Don't hold the plane in the stall.
Read "stick and rudder" rather than spend too much time on pprune.
bye now
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I'm starting to think that something out of the ordinary is going on between this instructor and his female student..
This almost always is because your gripping the controls as if your throttling a chicken
Its not so much that you using only those fingers its the fact that you not balling your fist round it. So if your fingers arn;t strong enough use three finger s and thumb but still have the centre of pressure on the fingers while they can move and not in a fist.
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Having entered a zillion stalls with students, the first thing any pilot will do given any sort of uncommanded roll is to apply opposite aileron.
I would do the same.
Practise stalls are so artificial.
If stalled a wing may drop. Practise recovery from a wing drop.
If this scares pilots, good, don't stall.
At worse recover at the stall warner, that's if it's working or not iced up.
Recover perhaps when you feel the airspeed is low due to lack of control (slow flight exercise), rather than when the stall warner might or might not go off.
I would do the same.
Practise stalls are so artificial.
If stalled a wing may drop. Practise recovery from a wing drop.
If this scares pilots, good, don't stall.
At worse recover at the stall warner, that's if it's working or not iced up.
Recover perhaps when you feel the airspeed is low due to lack of control (slow flight exercise), rather than when the stall warner might or might not go off.
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BEB
Going off topic slightly the main reason I feel that while recovery at incipient is an excellent exercise I don't think it is enough!
It is a product of our liability society and hence in these discussions I always recommend pilots invest a few hours with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic capable aircraft ( a 152 aerobat ) is fine
The reason for that is twofold ! One they can build confidence in the what lies beyond factor and really abuse the controls to see and experience the effect
Secondly it gives them a better chance of recovery if the aircraft goes beyond for whatever reason!
Recovery at incipient is obviously the prime target but sadly that is in an ideal world!
In an ideal world pilots would peg airspeed and never get slow but ??
Most stall accidents happen when the pilot is distracted and it is in those times that they may go beyond incipient!
I quote a couple of stalls at altitude when on autopilot which resulted in successful chute pulls in a certain aircraft!
There have been many loss of control accidents where incipient has not worked many sadly fatal even in aircraft like the PC12
With the famous airline crash where ATP rated pilots used the wrong recovery techniques even the FAA are looking at adding more handling techniques into the training syllabus!
We have had a couple of threads where pilots have been scared of stalling on their own because they fear doing something which puts them in unknown territory and not having someone alongside to get them out of it.
Hence I would add a few hours aerobatic instruction into the PPL syllabus even if it means trimming out those hours from the existing syllabus to make way for extra handling!
If not I would thoroughly recommend pilots invest in a few hours aerobatic training including the OP as this will give them a lot more confidence and make them better pilots.
Not to take up aerobatics
but so they can fully explore the flight envelope and effect of controls in relative safety.
Pace
Going off topic slightly the main reason I feel that while recovery at incipient is an excellent exercise I don't think it is enough!
It is a product of our liability society and hence in these discussions I always recommend pilots invest a few hours with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic capable aircraft ( a 152 aerobat ) is fine
The reason for that is twofold ! One they can build confidence in the what lies beyond factor and really abuse the controls to see and experience the effect
Secondly it gives them a better chance of recovery if the aircraft goes beyond for whatever reason!
Recovery at incipient is obviously the prime target but sadly that is in an ideal world!
In an ideal world pilots would peg airspeed and never get slow but ??
Most stall accidents happen when the pilot is distracted and it is in those times that they may go beyond incipient!
I quote a couple of stalls at altitude when on autopilot which resulted in successful chute pulls in a certain aircraft!
There have been many loss of control accidents where incipient has not worked many sadly fatal even in aircraft like the PC12
With the famous airline crash where ATP rated pilots used the wrong recovery techniques even the FAA are looking at adding more handling techniques into the training syllabus!
We have had a couple of threads where pilots have been scared of stalling on their own because they fear doing something which puts them in unknown territory and not having someone alongside to get them out of it.
Hence I would add a few hours aerobatic instruction into the PPL syllabus even if it means trimming out those hours from the existing syllabus to make way for extra handling!
If not I would thoroughly recommend pilots invest in a few hours aerobatic training including the OP as this will give them a lot more confidence and make them better pilots.
Not to take up aerobatics
but so they can fully explore the flight envelope and effect of controls in relative safety.Pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Feb 2014 at 09:22.
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hopefully it might produce a more robust stomach as well.
Bumpy conditions, time under the hood and stall after stall last lesson produced one chundering pilot!
I will consider the aeros , just want to get the PPL sorted first
Bumpy conditions, time under the hood and stall after stall last lesson produced one chundering pilot!
I will consider the aeros , just want to get the PPL sorted first
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I too plan to do what pace recommends. Lucky for me, there is an aerobatic school near the club. However, I am not personally ready for that just yet, although I dont think I am far off it!
How times change. My father was a veteran flying instructor in the days when we had Chipmunks at the flying school.
He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.
He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.
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Originally Posted by fireflybob
How times change. My father was a veteran flying instructor in the days when we had Chipmunks at the flying school.
He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.
He would often get the students flying loops before first solo and the way he taught the students loved it.
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andy p
you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.
but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.
you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:
1. read many books on flying, all aspects.
2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock
3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.
not trying to kick you off pprune, but time is wasting and there are better ways to spend it!
all the best, I mean it.
you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.
but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.
you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:
1. read many books on flying, all aspects.
2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock
3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.
not trying to kick you off pprune, but time is wasting and there are better ways to spend it!
all the best, I mean it.
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Originally Posted by glendalegoon
andy p
you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.
but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.
you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:
1. read many books on flying, all aspects.
2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock
3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.
you seem like a nice guy and interested in flying.
but you spend a great amount of time on pprune.
you might benefit by the following, free ways to improve your own flying:
1. read many books on flying, all aspects.
2. go out to the ''instructor's bench" (that's what we call it in the USA) and sit and watch takeoffs and landings. Now that videocams are so cheap, video them and study them. especially from 200' down and climbout to 2oo' too.
If there is no instructor's bench, just get as close to the runway as THEY will let you. maybe near the windsock
3. buy a cheap VHF receiver (like from radio shack company) and listen to the radio work while watching the landings and takeoffs.
2. Do that also. Quite often I go out sit just at the bounds of the aerodrome and watch the aircraft land and observe the technique.
I also try and participate in as much of the social stuff that the club does, including the club flyaway's.
3. I have a scanner. At home, I don't receive much. At the club, well its CTAF so not much radio work that I don't already know and do.
As for being on pprune, well I am at work now
. But I do other things here, like this: https://www.edx.org/course/delftx/de...onautical-1201 I cant help it, I am an engineer! Sorry, work is quiet at the moment. I also have a little hideyhole here that I sneak off in to do some of my PPL study. I normally spend an hour or two doing that whilst things are quiet. Sometimes being the owner of the business is tough!
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An update
had another dual lesson this weekend in an attempt to get these bleedin' power on stalls nailed.
usual checks then into my first power on stall. Yup, exactly the same as last time
can't resist those ailerons. I realise what I'm doing and correct but not before I've made the situation worse than it needed to be.
My instructor waits a moment while I run through my entire repertoire of swear words. Then we revert back to trying some power off stalls with full flaps.
we establish that I can recover from them just fine for whatever reason.
So we start with full flaps and adding a couple of of hundred rpm. I give it a go. I catch myself trying to snatch the yoke round but stop myself.Not quite quickly enough for it to be perfect.
Still we persist, just adding a little power at a time as I get comfortable with the recovery.
Eventually I'm managing at about 1600 rpm with full flaps.we do a couple more to prove to me that it wasn't a fluke.
countless stalls later and I'm feeling a lot better about the whole thing. And my instructor is happy to sign me off to do them solo.
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions, turns out ( as many of you suspected) that this was just a temporary bump on the road to getting my ppl. One that I appear to be in the process of navigating.
in terms of what actually helped, I was wrong in thinking i needed to do something drastic to stop my arms twisting the yoke, anything which makes me tense up is a bad idea. relaxing into it and slowing it down helped. Not just the recovery. My instructor encouraged me to slow down the entry as well. Letting the speed bleed off slowly and giving the flaps time to do there thing certainly helped. Maybe it just helped me be more relaxed when the plane did stall. I dunno
Eventually i just stopped doing the stupid stuff with the ailerons.
usual checks then into my first power on stall. Yup, exactly the same as last time
can't resist those ailerons. I realise what I'm doing and correct but not before I've made the situation worse than it needed to be.My instructor waits a moment while I run through my entire repertoire of swear words. Then we revert back to trying some power off stalls with full flaps.
we establish that I can recover from them just fine for whatever reason.
So we start with full flaps and adding a couple of of hundred rpm. I give it a go. I catch myself trying to snatch the yoke round but stop myself.Not quite quickly enough for it to be perfect.
Still we persist, just adding a little power at a time as I get comfortable with the recovery.
Eventually I'm managing at about 1600 rpm with full flaps.we do a couple more to prove to me that it wasn't a fluke.
countless stalls later and I'm feeling a lot better about the whole thing. And my instructor is happy to sign me off to do them solo.
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions, turns out ( as many of you suspected) that this was just a temporary bump on the road to getting my ppl. One that I appear to be in the process of navigating.
in terms of what actually helped, I was wrong in thinking i needed to do something drastic to stop my arms twisting the yoke, anything which makes me tense up is a bad idea. relaxing into it and slowing it down helped. Not just the recovery. My instructor encouraged me to slow down the entry as well. Letting the speed bleed off slowly and giving the flaps time to do there thing certainly helped. Maybe it just helped me be more relaxed when the plane did stall. I dunno
Eventually i just stopped doing the stupid stuff with the ailerons.
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God work localflighteast. I just have to finish off my circuit solo work, then I am back to the training area. I passed all the advanced stalls, but the instructor said after each lesson we will do a couple of practice stalls anyway. Bet you I will end up doing the same thing!! I may come pester you for some advice in a couple of weeks!
Might I add, sometimes just coming here and talking about this stuff makes you think about it enough to sort it out. I had the same thing when learning to flare. Next lesson after talking about it here I nailed it.
Might I add, sometimes just coming here and talking about this stuff makes you think about it enough to sort it out. I had the same thing when learning to flare. Next lesson after talking about it here I nailed it.
localflighteast
Wayhay!
That's great. I hope it helped to have a bunch of strangers kick your problem around and see what they came up with. There are always others here in the same situation, and ones that have overcome the same problems not long before. I know the Pixxxxg Contest compettitors can be a bit of a pain here, but generally you find people are genuine and really want to help.
MJ
That's great. I hope it helped to have a bunch of strangers kick your problem around and see what they came up with. There are always others here in the same situation, and ones that have overcome the same problems not long before. I know the Pixxxxg Contest compettitors can be a bit of a pain here, but generally you find people are genuine and really want to help.MJ
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localflightest
did you know there is a prescribed deceleration rate for such maneuvers (at least in FAA land)?
AS you start to slow into a stall, reduce speed by one knot per second. if you stall around 40, and you are starting at 100 knots, it takes quite a bit of time.
do you start trimming for any specific speed like Vy?
If you trim hands off for Vy and then pull slowly into the stall, when you let go the plane will be trimmed for a nice best rate of climb making it easier on you.
did you know there is a prescribed deceleration rate for such maneuvers (at least in FAA land)?
AS you start to slow into a stall, reduce speed by one knot per second. if you stall around 40, and you are starting at 100 knots, it takes quite a bit of time.
do you start trimming for any specific speed like Vy?
If you trim hands off for Vy and then pull slowly into the stall, when you let go the plane will be trimmed for a nice best rate of climb making it easier on you.
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Mach Jump , it sure did help. That's one of the things I love about pprune. As Andy says it just helps to get your thoughts down and have other people tell you that nothing you are experiencing is new or exciting!
For me the biggest problem has always been confidence, just to hear other people experiencing the same issues lessens the "impostor syndrome" feeling I get sometimes.
My flying school isn't really set up in a way to encourage "hanger talk", it's not unfriendly per se , just not set up in a way to be conducive to it, so I need to get my fix on here !
Glen - I'll have a little play with that trick next time I'm up, thank you
For me the biggest problem has always been confidence, just to hear other people experiencing the same issues lessens the "impostor syndrome" feeling I get sometimes.
My flying school isn't really set up in a way to encourage "hanger talk", it's not unfriendly per se , just not set up in a way to be conducive to it, so I need to get my fix on here !
Glen - I'll have a little play with that trick next time I'm up, thank you
