power on stalls - some help would be lovely!

[mad_jock]

Don't be scared of them. Ask your instructor if you can do a "let go" recovery for and giggles then you know what happens if you stop annoying the plane

[Pace]

LocalFlightEast

I think you are reverting to your instincts but not in an aircraft but a car. Even though the wing drops to say the right you turn as in a car to the left Ok A Car does not drop a wing but i think you are in car mode.
You are still thinking as you would in a car which operates on one plane and not in an aircraft which move up and down as well as left and right.
How many car drivers also move forward peering out of the screen
The fact is those techniques ar not correct for driving a car.
You maybe are still considering the yoke as a steering wheel and the pedals as the brake, clutch accelerator position.
Try to detach those natural instincts and think of the yoke and pedals in their correct sense

[StuartUK]

Regarding leaning forward in your seat during steep turns, I don't see any problem in that in fact this is how I was taught by my instructors. Leaning forward and getting closer to the windscreen enables you to see what you are flying into when you're flying a high wing.

The best trick that I was taught for steep turns was as soon as you're at the desired bank angle line up a point on the cowling (such as cowling screw or another visible mark) with the horizon and make sure you keep it there for the duration of the turn. Using this method you'll be able to detect even the smallest nose drop and be able to correct it before it becomes a hopeless cause.

[Andy_P]

I have the same problem.

For those who are saying use of aileron is ok, its not if you want to pass the flight test.

FWIW, I had (and still do) have this problem. I am fairly confident that I can recover from any stall condition now, but if you dont do it text book, you dont pass.

What worked for me, is full flap power on stall, but dont use your rudder until the aircraft is fully stalled. You get the wing drop, and it begins to enter a spin. For some reason, it was me focusing on the rudder to stop the rotation that made it all come together.

I really don't understand why they do full flap stall and have you (as mad_jock put it) tap dancing on the rudder. Why not just a full wing drop stall, which is probably what is going to happen in the real world should you actually stall.

And mad_jock, my instructor told me the procedure in AU used to be to just let go and let the plane recover!

[glendalegoon]

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...83-3a-3of7.pdf


andy p and others. I mentioned the coordinated use of aileron and rudder after reducing angle of attack and adding power. I mentioned washout and how the stall no longer starts at the tip (very oldplanes, circa ww1 may not be included)

here is the FAA document to indicate everything I've said. Now, if there are different concepts in different nations, fine. And if you use just aileron without coordinated use of rudder, you are wrong. BUT, proper use of aileron is just fine. Again, PROPER.

so, read, learn, enjoy. And everything here was basically written in a book called, ''stick and rudder'' some 70 years ago.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The best trick that I was taught for steep turns was as soon as you're at the desired bank angle line up a point on the cowling (such as cowling screw or another visible mark) with the horizon and make sure you keep it there for the duration of the turn. Using this method you'll be able to detect even the smallest nose drop and be able to correct it before it becomes a hopeless cause.

What kind of a steep turn does that give you when you have mountains all around you?

[StuartUK]

An interesting one!

There's not a hell of a lot of mountains in the south of the UK so it hasn't been a problem yet. I will let you know how it goes if I stray into the French Alps or somewhere similar though.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The method you described works just fine in an area with a fairly level horizon StuartUK.

However once you get the picture and the feel and the sound of a good steep turn you can then practice your steep turns with reference to the altimeter to maintain a constant altitude that results in the bang you feel when you hit the wake the airplane made where you stared the turn.

After that gets boring you learn the picture sound and feel all over in the inverted position.

[Andy_P]

Originally Posted by glendalegoon

here is the FAA document to indicate everything I've said. Now, if there are different concepts in different nations, fine. And if you use just aileron without coordinated use of rudder, you are wrong. BUT, proper use of aileron is just fine. Again, PROPER

Not disagreeing with you BTW. Here is the problem though, we are not all in the US. My training so far is once you have unstalled the aircraft, then the use of aileron is fine, just as you suggest.

So here is the issue, they get you to do a stall with full flap. They dont want to see a wing drop, so you are dancing on the rudders to keep the aircraft straight. The problem I had early on was because the plane has a tendency to wing drop with a power on stall, the first thing you try and do is use the aileron to turn the opposite way of the rotation, as opposed to the rudder. This just exacerbates problem, causing the stalled wing to further stall and puts you into a spin (I assume, I have never actually entered a fully developed spin).

Like I said, I don't understand why they do this, because I assume that in a real life scenario if you stall with full flap, then you are probably using both rudder and aileron in a coordinated fashion, and you are probably coming into land, so why not just teach the recovery as such? My instructor is teaching me to recover with minimum altitude loss, so I know the aim is to deal with stalls during landing.

[glendalegoon]

two thoughts:

one, when is the plane stalled? does a wing drop count?


two: the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.


recognize the stall, get out of it, the rudder dance is a wasted maneuver imho. mind you I"ve done it. I did it for my private checkride almost 40 years ago and the examiner said: why did you do the rudder dance, just recover and level the wings.

I mentioned that one of the instructors taught me how to do that (examiner was also chief pilot for the school) and he said they would be changing things. I think we called it the falling leaf?

When I taught, I didn't even show it, recover and use coordinated aileron and rudder.

Imagine if you over did the rudder in the stalled or semi stalled condition!

push forward, add power and coordinated controls to level flight!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by glendalegoon

the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.

Huh

[Chuck Ellsworth]

two: the horizon in mountainous terrain is always at the base of the mountains, not the peaks.

Always????

[glendalegoon]

where else would the horizon be? above the peaks?

now, I'm not including sea floor mountains in case you are operating the seaview's flying sub (reference to "voyage to the bottom of the sea).


think about it. the horizon is where sky meets the earth (or sea) and the mountains protrude above the earth.

[Mach Jump]

I think what some people are missing here is that there are two parts to a stall recovery.

1. First regain control by reducing the Angle of Attack (AoA). This will eliminate all the symptoms; stall warning, buffeting, and the wing will stop dropping.

Then you are left with an aircraft in an unusual attitude, with low airspeed.

2. Now you minimise the loss of height in the usual way; increase power, level the wings with coordinated use of aileron and rudder, raise the nose to the climb attitude, being careful not to re-enter the stall by pulling too hard, and finally retract the flaps in stages.

The important thing to remember here is that there is absolutely no point doing any of the things in part 2 until yoiu have completed part 1 !

I think that localflighteast understands the above perfectly well, but just can't resist reacting to the wing drop with opposite aileron before reducing the AoA

I agree with Big Pistons that taking it more slowly and saying the actions out loud will help get this right.


Glendalegoon.

I'm not sure about the horizon being at the base of the mountains. I think that you have to average out the peaks and valleys to estimate where the sea horizon would be.



MJ

[Mach Jump]

....the seaview's flying sub....

I doubt most readers will remember Admiral Nelson and the Seaview (showing my own age now!)

MJ

[abgd]

I also tend to pull power early on as with a major wing drop you are in an incipient spin that often ends up as a spiral dive with a lot of speed. Or is that to say that I've been overcooking things? Or possibly undercooking - trying too hard to avoid an accelerated stall.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A quick google search brought this up.

Historically, the distance to the visible horizon at sea has been extremely important as it represented the maximum range of communication and vision before the development of the radio and the telegraph. Even today, when flying an aircraft under Visual Flight Rules, a technique called attitude flying is used to control the aircraft, where the pilot uses the visual relationship between the aircraft's nose and the horizon to control the aircraft. A pilot can also retain his or her spatial orientation by referring to the horizon.

The use of the visible horizon on the prairies to maintain altitude in a turn will be very beneficial to you.

Conversely using the visible separation of earth and sky in mountainous terrain during a steep turn may prove to be not exactly beneficial in maintaining accurate altitude all the way around a steep turn.

[Mach Jump]

I also tend to pull power early on

I can see why you would think that, but as soon as you reduce the AoA, and regain control, you don't need to reduce power.

One more thing you can add, once you have got the hang of the above, is use rudder to prevent yaw towards the downgoing wing after you have recovered control. (NOT TO PICK IT UP) Then the pitch attitude will not end up so steeply nose down.

MJ

[abgd]

Maybe I'm heavy footed, but when I tried that in a PA38 we found ourselves upside down with the nose not far off vertical. I wasn't sure whether we were in a spin or not, and by the time I'd looked at my instructor and said 'you have control' we were going rather fast - well into the yellow arc before recovering. Cessnas are more benign, but you can still get into some 'unusual attitudes' worthy of the name if you stall with sufficient power and don't try to recover immediately.

I hear what you're saying, but presumably somewhere between a 30 degree wing drop and the nose pointing vertically down, there's a threshold where it doesn't make sense any more to add power.

[Mach Jump]

hear what you're saying, but presumably somewhere between a 30 degree wing drop and the nose pointing vertically down, there's a threshold where it doesn't make sense any more to add power.

Yes, I see what you mean. Once the situation has developed to that extent, the unusual attitude is one with a high, or rapidly increasing airspeed, and you are right, in that situation, to reduce power.

Is this happening as a result of your rudder input, ie. does the wing drop, then you apply opposite rudder, then the aircraft rolls over the other way?

In that case you are being too heavy footed, and applying the rudder too soon, before you have unstalled the wing.

If the same wing continues to drop after you apply the rudder, then you have not unstalled the wing first.

Remember the first thing you must do, before anything else, is move the control column forward far enough to eliminate the stall symptoms!

The PA38 is particularly inclined to drop a wing at the stall, and as a result of experience it was recomended that manoeuvers involving an approach to the stall in the PA38 not be started below 4,000' agl as an added precaution.



MJ