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Old 16th Feb 2014, 07:42
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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New to Flying

Hi

I recently started flying. For my landings my instructor insist that I shouldn't use my ailerons throughout my entire approach and landing phase. He says to only use rudder to keep the plane stable for approach.

I am having difficulty trying to understand this concept as I have a tendency to use the ailerons to keep my wings level since ailerons primary control is roll whereas rudder secondary control is roll.

Anyone has any explanation to this method? Is this an alternative method which I'm unfamiliar with? Instructor has 2000+ hours in total and 1500+ hours on the PA28 the aircraft I'm training on.

Thank You
Hermie is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2014, 08:19
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New to Flying

I have never heard of this...on gliders, light powered singles (tail and nose wheel types), light twins and commercial turboprops I use coordinated controls at all times unless sideslipping.

Are there other instructors at your club/school with whom you could talk this over? This does not sound to be a good situation to me...
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 08:43
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Hermie,

Get yourself another instructor. This one sounds dangerous.
India Four Two is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2014, 08:59
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Yep, get another instructor!
(Ex grade 1 instructor - back in 1986 I hit 2000hours instructing)
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 09:13
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I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 09:16
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Are you conveying the whole story? Is the approach you mention being advocated as a long-term method, or as a remedial technique - maybe for gross overcontrol? I've not heard of the exact situation you describe but I know that some students are their own worst enemies in inducing instability.

As a very low time PPL transitioning to a very high performance aircraft, I recall a few exercises designed to get me out of the habit of inducing roll oscillations on final. I can't help wondering if your instructor is trying to do something similar.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 09:55
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When I first started my circuits, the tendency is to try and steer the plane on the centre line by using the yoke/stick. Its the same when you first learn to taxi and aircraft, you want to steer it like a car, but it does not work that way.

Is your instructor saying no aileron during the whole final, or just as you are landing, ie late final.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 10:18
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My first reaction, was the instructor is,short-term teaching the pupil what his feet are for!
If , OTOH, he considers this the best way to fly a final approach.....find a more orthodox instructor!
I am not a pilot but have some experience with R/c models...the physics governing flight are the same, except low-mass models are a lot more twitchy than full-size.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 10:40
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Hermie

I am OLD to flying. I learned to fly in a PA28 in 1975 when it was 12 US dollars an hour to rent the thing with gasoline included.

I've taught in the PA28

I've flown many planes.

Get a new instructor. Get a copy of the book, "Stick and rudder" and read it until your eyes are blurry.


Any time you fly, you should be using a combination of ailerons and rudder to make the plane fly correctly, not just rudder. Why do you think the plane has ailerons?

Mind you, the instructor may think you are using too much ailerons, but then he should say: Look Hermie, you are over controlling. It only takes a little bit to get the plane to do what you want it to.


So please, either clarify things with your instructor or get a new one.


I applaud your choice of the cherokee series of planes to learn to fly in.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 11:42
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Certainly a worrying piece of advice to give any students, don't use one of the primary flight controls when coming into land?!? Never heard such nonsense.

You should clarify that you understand what he means though, he may be just using some technique to try and break a bad habit that you have developed, and might not mean literally don't use ailerons at all.

If that's really what he means, find another instructor.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 17:22
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I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.


Hermie.

Some of the posters on here have given you some good advice. This Isn't one of them.

On the face of it, your instructor's advice doesn't make any sense. I suspect that there may be some misunderstanding between you.

MJ
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 18:42
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Quote:
I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.
Hermie.

Some of the posters on here have given you some good advice. This Isn't one of them.

On the face of it, your instructor's advice doesn't make any sense. I suspect that there may be some misunderstanding between you.

MJ
Just wondering if anyone can trademark a signature.... when I see MJ, I automatically think of a member of this forum from north of the border ;-)
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 19:20
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Just wondering if anyone can trademark a signature.... when I see MJ, I automatically think of a member of this forum from north of the border ;-)
I'll try to remember to put a smiley face with mine to save confusion.

MJ
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 19:36
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I don't think "the entire approach" i.e. all the way from having turned final - is what is meant by OP.


However I distinctly recall one instructor told me to use rudder in those last few seconds before touchdown to get the a/c pointing in the right direction, assuming I was already tracking down the extended centre line of the runway and wings are level.


Just as you would do for a crabbed approach in a crosswind.


Hermie needs to get his instructor to demonstrate exactly what he means.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 20:02
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Good grief,get another school/instructor or is your existing one a product of the EU and it's EASA crap
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 21:25
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However I distinctly recall one instructor told me to use rudder in those last few seconds before touchdown to get the a/c pointing in the right direction, assuming I was already tracking down the extended centre line of the runway and wings are level.
That interpretation is credible, yes.

Today however I landed on one wheel [the correct one, deliberately] ... try doing that using only the rudder!
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 22:30
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When I was instructing I found using the rudder an extremely useful tool for maybe one or two circuits, almost all student spend so much time flying the plane it uses all their mental ability and the whole circuit is a mad rush to them.

I explained beforehand that this is not how you fly a plane but will show you how much time you have. Take off, trim, let go of yolk and use gentle rudder inputs to keep it wings level. At level off trim and set power and once stable let go of yolk and use gentle rudder inputs to keep it pointing the right way same thing for base and final, set power for descent and trim then let go again, (needed yolk for the 90deg turns) at flap extension use yolk. For some reason people do not ever seem to over control with their feet during this exercise and it is mostly flown without any input at all, the students are amazed at how much time they have and how free their mind is to think ahead of the aircraft. After one or two circuits like this the over controlling is almost gone when using the yolk as it should be, and it is a far more relaxed time for the student.

I would only do this around the solo stage or later.
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 22:49
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Hermie, there is some complete rubbish being posted here. Talk to your Instructor and get him to explain exactly what he means.

I was also taught to use rudder during final approach to pick up a wing (this is what I think he means) and anyone (and I mean anyone that can fly a real aeroplane) knows that during slow flight you should be careful using coarse aileron.

If in doubt, ask your Instructor. Trust is very important and your Instructor wants you to learn to fly properly and safely.

Frankly, I can't believe some of the ridiculous comments on here. e.g. what on earth is a yolk? Ye gods!
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 22:56
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Chuck Ellsworth is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2014, 23:13
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@ sloppyjoe (and others who have the same problem, there are several!)

yolk is the yellow bit in the middle of a bird's egg, OK?

a YOKE is two rings, joined together, forming a figure8. Usually elliptical,each loop passes over the head of a beast and the centre commonly is attached to a drawbar in order that the two beasts can share the pulling of a load....they are said to be YOKED together.

the designation YOKE is applied to the "handlebar" used to control an aircraft as an alternative to a "stick", probably because of it's shape being reminiscent of the yoke used to harness two horses / bullocks / oxen etc.

No more yolks in the Cockpit, please, unless they are crew-food!
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