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Old 16th Feb 2014, 23:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wellington,NZ
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Originally Posted by DeeCee View Post
I suggest that he means during final approach pick up a wing with rudder. Coarse application of aileron near stall speed could be dangerous. Use the ailerons for directional control i.e. keeping on the centreline.
And, if course, coarse application of the rudder near the stall isn't just as dangerous?

This argument seems to be a bit specious.

I agree with Mach Jump.

Ask the instructor. There may be some misunderstanding. If not explained to your satisfaction, ask another instructor.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 00:43
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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im pre-ppl but just for the record, I'm being taught a similar thing especially in crosswinds. Pick up the centreline using whatever controls you need down to about 200 feet, carb heat to cold, and just use rudders after that to keep it facing in the right direction. Ailerons should only be used to make sure the rudder inputs don't make one of the wings drop too far


but I am by no means an expert lets make that thing very clear
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 00:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time. It worked on 80 different aircraft and is so easy to do. Keep things simple and don't listen to some pilot just because he has more hours than you. I didn't. Airplanes don't like landing in a crab so do my simple procedure. It works every time.

GSS, your instructor is making you into a robot, not a real pilot. Please let him let you land using piloting skills as we were taught decades ago. They work much better. You can do it. Maybe he will learn something from you. Just tell him you want to try something different.

Everybody should learn to fly in a tail wheel airplane just to know how to land properly without ground looping. Then carry it on.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 08:45
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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This has drifted away from the original question. He did not ask about landing in a crosswind.

If you are close to the stall and use coarse application of aileron you risk stalling the 'up' wing.

SloppyJoe - does PAT mean anything to you. Thought not......
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 09:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I think Chuck sums this up very nicely in post 19.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 09:35
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Everybody should learn to fly in a tail wheel airplane just to know how to land properly without ground looping.
I'll take that one step further, I think that anyone who wants a power license should get to a least solo standard on gliders first.

I also think that anyone who wants to drive should learn to ride a motorcycle first.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 10:22
  #27 (permalink)  
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Thanks everyone for your replies. Since my eighth hour, I have been told to never to use the ailerons to align myself if my plane does drift left/right of RWY while trying to keep centreline for landing.

Even when there was a strong gust of wind, that lift the wing from one side and I immediately counter it with opposite aileron control and he tells me that, "I like to use the ailerons alot and I should only use rudder inputs." This applies to both gusty wind conditions and light & variable.

Over the weekend winds were 9kts gusting to 13kts, and I was kept from using the ailerons throughout the entire approach, landing, flare and touchdown. He has other current students and they all don't seem to have a problem with this technique. Apparently, I am the only one with this problem.

And when I clarified with him he says that this is the method for landing. He doesn't show me the crab method nor the slip method despite having crosswinds during our landing.

So I am really confused and having a tough time for my circuit phase now.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 10:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I once had a PPL student who came to me from another school - he'd done about 30 hours - and he had quite clearly been taught only to steer with rudder after the final turn. Needless to say he was struggling to keep lined up, allow for crosswind drift and fly the approach in a way that gave me any confidence that he really saw how it worked. It took a long time to re-train him.


To my discredit I never asked his original instructor if he taught everybody that way. I should have done.


Hermie - I'm sorry, but what you are being taught is wrong. Has your instructor explained WHY he thinks you should only use rudder for the approach?
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 11:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I think Chuck sums this up very nicely in post 19.
Ditto, what a load of carp this thread is
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 12:25
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Hermie:

Perhaps your instructor has reinvented flying? Pray tell me what he allows you to use the ailerons for?

More than one person on this thread has offered advice, have you taken it?

Can you find another instructor?


I remember a bad movie about 48 years ago and someone was talking down someone else who had not flown this type of plane before and they kept telling him to use the rudder for small adjustments. BUT IT WAS A MOVIE.

Hermie, our advice won't work if you don't take it.

Oh, one other thing. Does the slip skid ball stay centered while your instructor uses this rudder only technique? If it does, I would be surprised.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 13:50
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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If what Hermie is describing is accurate the instructor is incompetent.

I would ask the regulator who gave said instructor his / her license and then demand the regulator remove the inspector from the position of issuing flight instructor ratings and change his / her job to mowing the lawn with a push lawn mower with no engine.

And hire the instructor as a helper, to rake and pick up the cut grass.....

That will give both of them a position that is useful to society.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 14:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Nearly completed ppler:When on finals I point plane into wind (using my feet ) and keep wings level using aileron. Just before touchdown correct to runway heading using rudders and aileron into wind. This is what I've been taught. I think I would struggle just using the rudders on final.

Lak
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 14:50
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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bubbers44 said:

My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time. It worked on 80 different aircraft and is so easy to do. Keep things simple.
As far as the final part of the approach/landing is concerned, I couldn't have put it better!

For the most part of the approach, fly whatever heading maintains the centreline, using the rudder to prevent yaw and the ailerons to keep the wings level.
If you need to make a turn, use coordinated aileron and rudder to prevent adverse yaw (maintain balance) as you roll into and out of the turn.

Hermie
Is your instructor a different nationality and having difficulty explaining things in your language? If he is, you should find another instructor who speaks your language. If he isn't, you should just find another instructor!

MJ

Last edited by Mach Jump; 17th Feb 2014 at 15:02.
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 20:37
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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Originally Posted by bubbers44
My initial instructor said when flying our tail dragger Aeronca champ to parallel the runway center line with rudders and use the ailerons to control drift. It worked perfectly through 23,000hrs from biplanes to B 767's. Landing on the upwind wheel with tires lined up with centerline works every time.
This is the way I am currently being taught!
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 23:13
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Do not waste anymore money or lessons with this instructor, find a new one quickly.
Yeah, right: So Hermie trolls up to his instructor and says ' I can't fathom your final approach advice so I've asked a load of people on the internet who I don't know, have never met and have indeterminate credentials and they all say you're cr ap'.

Hermie: before you do that, have a quiet word with the CFI of your club and ask him what's best to do.

(Unless your instructor is the CFI in which case you're stuffed.)

Cusco
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 01:46
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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The rudder to align with center line and ailerons to control drift of course is only in the final 50 ft. I have seen copilots do it at 200 ft and it makes it uncomfortable for the passengers for no reason. I thought everybody taught the way I learned. I guess the magenta line pilots are trying to make everything mechanical, no pilot skills required.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 10:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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I thought everybody taught the way I learned
Sometimes we don't realise how lucky we are.

MJ
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 16:24
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I guess the magenta line pilots are trying to make everything mechanical, no pilot skills required.
The downward spiral of flight instructor competency started long before the magenta line came into the cockpit.

The cause for the downward spiral is really not that difficult to determine.

First there is a regulator that is stuck in the cave man era of intelligence with their only agenda being growing their bureaucracy to protect their income to their graves.

Second is the ass backwards thinking that pilots start their flying careers by becoming flight instructors to build time to fly in regular commercial operations. What cretin thought up that scenario?

Third is the domino effect that a poor flight instructor will have on all the new instructors they teach .......it has to go downward over time.

Chuck Ellsworth.....from the Socialist Republic of Canada...

....where cretins in power has become the norm.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 19:37
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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where cretins in power has become the norm
Don't imagine that the Socialists have a monopoly on cretinism, Chuck!

MJ
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Old 20th Feb 2014, 11:19
  #40 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
 
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Yeah, right: So Hermie trolls up to his instructor and says ' I can't fathom your final approach advice so I've asked a load of people on the internet who I don't know, have never met and have indeterminate credentials and they all say you're cr ap'.
No, Hermie simply says politely that he'd like to try a different instructor for a bit. If pushed, he could say he's finding things hard and thinks it might help. But actually, he doesn't NEED to give a reason; it's his money and his choice. Any problem, go to a different flying school!

Whirly (who did just that after about 30 hours on helicopters, refused to criticise or discuss it in detail, but said she either wanted a new instructor or a new school...and got a new instructor!)
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