Stepping down gracefully....
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How often are you monitored, Pace? fess up!
Remember too light jets come under GA private and some are flown single pilot by luckier owners i.e. the CJ so private GA is not just the Piper cub in a field.oversight is not so prevalent in piston singles but I would support the idea of pilots over 70 having special tests.
if not 60! what is classified as old or older pilots who need to step down?
Pace
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If not 60! what is classified as old or older pilots who need to step down?
how do you decide when the time comes to step down gracefully from flying due to AGE and the inevitable decline in sharpness that comes with old age? Or do you just wait until the medics give you the chop?
The whole point is that people age at different rates. Have you actually read the thread?i
I would be all for pilots over 70 having special flight tests every 6 months or a year to check they are up to speed especially regarding reactions and ability to pick up their game under pressure.
In my view, the simple answer to the OP original question is - as a 74 year old, I will go on flying as long as I can and as long as I want to.
Like most pilots I know I am intensely self critical about my flying and I know that, when I don't do well in my own eyes, I do not enjoy it. Too many of those flights and I will stop. In the last couple of Winters I am aware that there are more days when I cannot be bothered to get the aircraft out because I feel the cold more than I did.
I frequently ask fellow pilots this question and, so far, everyone encourages me to go on as if it is ridiculous for me even to think about giving up. Some of them I fly with fairly often and they seem happy to fly with me.
I once thought that I would give up when I found myself making mistakes but then I realised that I have always made mistakes. Perhaps, if those mistakes become more serious, like flying with one mag switched off, I will give up.
Having operated with a NPPL for the last few years, my doctor has said that he wants to see me before he will sign another Declaration so it may be, in a couple of months, that he will put a stop to my flying.
Having given up flying for 23 years because of cost and family commitments, I am reluctant to stop again with out good reason.
Like most pilots I know I am intensely self critical about my flying and I know that, when I don't do well in my own eyes, I do not enjoy it. Too many of those flights and I will stop. In the last couple of Winters I am aware that there are more days when I cannot be bothered to get the aircraft out because I feel the cold more than I did.
I frequently ask fellow pilots this question and, so far, everyone encourages me to go on as if it is ridiculous for me even to think about giving up. Some of them I fly with fairly often and they seem happy to fly with me.
I once thought that I would give up when I found myself making mistakes but then I realised that I have always made mistakes. Perhaps, if those mistakes become more serious, like flying with one mag switched off, I will give up.
Having operated with a NPPL for the last few years, my doctor has said that he wants to see me before he will sign another Declaration so it may be, in a couple of months, that he will put a stop to my flying.
Having given up flying for 23 years because of cost and family commitments, I am reluctant to stop again with out good reason.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Frozen North
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As others have said, we all age at different rates.
For some of us the long history of commercial operations, followed by a retirement to general flying and instructing. With that experience you are probably safer than a lowish hours younger PPL. But as the ageing process catches up with some of us quicker than others.
I'm aware of a situation with someone who had an excellent run of committing aviation but unfortunately their memory started to deteriorate but yet no one told them this.
Except one year they went to a different AME who did a check on their memory and found that it wasn't 100%. (A mini mental state exam) The AME had come across them in social situations outwith the medical and knew that their memory was beginning to fail them. As it turned out they were diagnosed with cognitive impairment an early sign of dementia. Due to their baseline intelligence being superior to most, you may not have noticed unless you knew them well. The patient themselves was not aware that this was the case as they didn't see the problem and no one had ever pointed it out, even though all the locals knew there was a problem with their memory.
So sometimes we don't always know it's time to hang up our headset!
And maybe the other moral of the story is go to an AME you don't know socially!
For some of us the long history of commercial operations, followed by a retirement to general flying and instructing. With that experience you are probably safer than a lowish hours younger PPL. But as the ageing process catches up with some of us quicker than others.
I'm aware of a situation with someone who had an excellent run of committing aviation but unfortunately their memory started to deteriorate but yet no one told them this.
Except one year they went to a different AME who did a check on their memory and found that it wasn't 100%. (A mini mental state exam) The AME had come across them in social situations outwith the medical and knew that their memory was beginning to fail them. As it turned out they were diagnosed with cognitive impairment an early sign of dementia. Due to their baseline intelligence being superior to most, you may not have noticed unless you knew them well. The patient themselves was not aware that this was the case as they didn't see the problem and no one had ever pointed it out, even though all the locals knew there was a problem with their memory.
So sometimes we don't always know it's time to hang up our headset!
And maybe the other moral of the story is go to an AME you don't know socially!
At the ripe old age of 62, it is my intention to stop instructing at 65, and stop
flying at 70.
This is based mainly on observation at gliding clubs worldwide......but I may feel differently when those ages get nearer.
However, I have told my wife about this , so I dont suppose I will be allowed
to change my mind.
flying at 70.
This is based mainly on observation at gliding clubs worldwide......but I may feel differently when those ages get nearer.
However, I have told my wife about this , so I dont suppose I will be allowed
to change my mind.
Whirlybird is quite right to bring us back to the initial question. I agree that annual or biannual medicals do not adequately assess age or determine the time to stop. They merely eliminate pilots who have specific pathologies.
Having spent decades watching my colleagues age with varying effects, insight and outcome, I remain convinced that you cannot rely on the individual concerned. I believe that close colleagues almost always notice the deterioration and are aware of decreasing safety, but rarely raise concerns out of a misplaced sense of loyalty.
A number of organisations have suggested that with increasing age there is a need for a short certificate signed by a colleague confirming that the individual is not unduly impaired by age. The frequency of certification increases with age.
This is far from easy. Definition is difficult. We have to change perceptions so people feel they are helping and not letting colleagues down. In flying there is the issue of pilots flying alone, but I suspect that many of us have seen ageing pilots on the ground who obviously find things more difficult.
So perhaps the response to OP is to ask your fellow pilots if they think you are safe, invite them to fly with you from time to time, and not to be frightened to be open and ask them if they think you are past it
Having spent decades watching my colleagues age with varying effects, insight and outcome, I remain convinced that you cannot rely on the individual concerned. I believe that close colleagues almost always notice the deterioration and are aware of decreasing safety, but rarely raise concerns out of a misplaced sense of loyalty.
A number of organisations have suggested that with increasing age there is a need for a short certificate signed by a colleague confirming that the individual is not unduly impaired by age. The frequency of certification increases with age.
This is far from easy. Definition is difficult. We have to change perceptions so people feel they are helping and not letting colleagues down. In flying there is the issue of pilots flying alone, but I suspect that many of us have seen ageing pilots on the ground who obviously find things more difficult.
So perhaps the response to OP is to ask your fellow pilots if they think you are safe, invite them to fly with you from time to time, and not to be frightened to be open and ask them if they think you are past it
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radgirl
But still that beggars the question of what is considered old ? The airlines require one of the crew needs to be less than 60 if one is over 60 and 65 is the line!
Obviously we all age differently depending on a number of factors genetics being one but on average what age do we consider a pilot to be old?
Even what would be determined as senility by a layman in an older person could be stress, problems at home or even medication! Being scatty, vacant away with the fairies is not just displayed in older people but young ones too and stress induced!
I had big concerns over a pilot friend who was 70 and became forgetful very quickly he then returned to normal blaming statins he had started taking!
Really we come back to medical sand medical diagnosis and not an untrained opinion given by one individual pilot colleague!
On top of that some basic reaction problem solving tests over 70 might help
I would also like to know what statistical evidence backs the age limits imposed on commercial pilots and whether these limits are based on demonstrated threat to safety or perceived threat ?
Pace
But still that beggars the question of what is considered old ? The airlines require one of the crew needs to be less than 60 if one is over 60 and 65 is the line!
Obviously we all age differently depending on a number of factors genetics being one but on average what age do we consider a pilot to be old?
Even what would be determined as senility by a layman in an older person could be stress, problems at home or even medication! Being scatty, vacant away with the fairies is not just displayed in older people but young ones too and stress induced!
I had big concerns over a pilot friend who was 70 and became forgetful very quickly he then returned to normal blaming statins he had started taking!
Really we come back to medical sand medical diagnosis and not an untrained opinion given by one individual pilot colleague!
On top of that some basic reaction problem solving tests over 70 might help
I would also like to know what statistical evidence backs the age limits imposed on commercial pilots and whether these limits are based on demonstrated threat to safety or perceived threat ?
Pace
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace;
I intend to carry on flying my own aircraft after retirement, as long as I can, but I will probably put myself through a six monthly rather than bi-annual assessment,(much as I put up with now) I agree with you that if a commercial pilot can pass his medical and OPC's then he should be allowed to carry on, but EASA don't. About 40% of my flying is SPIFR in rotary and EASA say that stops at 60. They were challenged though the European courts by Uncle Ian of the Rotor Heads forum of PPRune, with some funding by PPRune members but lost. I'm not sure there is anybody with the financial cojones to have another go, but will keep watching.
SND
I intend to carry on flying my own aircraft after retirement, as long as I can, but I will probably put myself through a six monthly rather than bi-annual assessment,(much as I put up with now) I agree with you that if a commercial pilot can pass his medical and OPC's then he should be allowed to carry on, but EASA don't. About 40% of my flying is SPIFR in rotary and EASA say that stops at 60. They were challenged though the European courts by Uncle Ian of the Rotor Heads forum of PPRune, with some funding by PPRune members but lost. I'm not sure there is anybody with the financial cojones to have another go, but will keep watching.
SND
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace,
This is a completely separate and different issue. Could I suggest you start another thread on age and the rules of commercial flying.
And what is your evidence for this being needed at a particular age, ie 70? You don't like 60, you don't like 65, but 70, now that's OK for tests, because that's really old; is that your thinking? 
Either we accept that people all age at different rates, or we assume - as happens now in commercial/airline flying - that beyond 60 it's safer to get rid of them. The latter attitude is, as far as I can ascertain, based on.....very, very little in the way of medical evidence. But either way, this is a different issue from what we've been discussing here. Now I know this is PPRuNe and I'm not a mod and it's not up to me, but it seems a shame to let an interesting discussion drift over into an 'age and flying for the airlines' issue which has been discussed ad infinitum on here over the years I've been around on PPRuNe - too many, before anyone else says it.
But still that beggars the question of what is considered old ?
On top of that some basic reaction problem solving tests over 70 might help
Either we accept that people all age at different rates, or we assume - as happens now in commercial/airline flying - that beyond 60 it's safer to get rid of them. The latter attitude is, as far as I can ascertain, based on.....very, very little in the way of medical evidence. But either way, this is a different issue from what we've been discussing here. Now I know this is PPRuNe and I'm not a mod and it's not up to me, but it seems a shame to let an interesting discussion drift over into an 'age and flying for the airlines' issue which has been discussed ad infinitum on here over the years I've been around on PPRuNe - too many, before anyone else says it.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
doctors do get retired.
Jag Singh was my DAME for years and he was the sharpest most observant doctor I have known.
He was retired as too old.
I still think his retirement was crazy. He is still sharper than most of the young doctors I've seen.
Jag Singh was my DAME for years and he was the sharpest most observant doctor I have known.
He was retired as too old.
I still think his retirement was crazy. He is still sharper than most of the young doctors I've seen.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybird
Threads often and in fact usually drift and come back (read some)
The question was about when to retire gracefully from flying due to age?
I would have thought that both are related and not far from the original question!
Ok I fly private jets and I am paid for it but as stated wealthy pilots may own and fly a CJ1 as much a private owner and pilot as one who owns a PA28
Obviously the regulations are different between AOC and private flights but I fly private
As for picking an age ? If not why 70 or 65 why not go the other way 50 or 45 ?
I know a few knackered burnt out 45 year olds too
Dementia is not only for the over 70s as some people of 50 develop it so I would think that the answer is pretty simple
Fly as long as you want to as long as you pass your medical sand flight checks as simple as that
Pace
Threads often and in fact usually drift and come back (read some)
The question was about when to retire gracefully from flying due to age?
I would have thought that both are related and not far from the original question!
Ok I fly private jets and I am paid for it but as stated wealthy pilots may own and fly a CJ1 as much a private owner and pilot as one who owns a PA28
Obviously the regulations are different between AOC and private flights but I fly private
As for picking an age ? If not why 70 or 65 why not go the other way 50 or 45 ?
I know a few knackered burnt out 45 year olds too
Dementia is not only for the over 70s as some people of 50 develop it so I would think that the answer is pretty simple
Fly as long as you want to as long as you pass your medical sand flight checks as simple as that
Pace
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radgirl, wise words indeed! She points out "you cannot rely on the individual concerned!....close colleagues almost always notice...but rarely raise concerns out of a misplaced sense of loyalty!"
The nail hit on the head, squarely! Alpha mike echo in post 46 gives a very pertinent example....an aging pilot who went to a different AME for his annual who was shrewd enough to discover it...."the patient was not aware....didn't see the problem....no one had ever pointed it out!"
So there is a problem, as shown in this very thread by the old farts who are going to keep on flying until they themselves make the judgement call! Too often in private aviation, one is rather isolated in one's own private aircraft.
Driving to the airfield in your beamer, gallivanting off to the South of France, how often are your chums (if any!) getting a chance to observe your decline?
The nail hit on the head, squarely! Alpha mike echo in post 46 gives a very pertinent example....an aging pilot who went to a different AME for his annual who was shrewd enough to discover it...."the patient was not aware....didn't see the problem....no one had ever pointed it out!"
So there is a problem, as shown in this very thread by the old farts who are going to keep on flying until they themselves make the judgement call! Too often in private aviation, one is rather isolated in one's own private aircraft.
Driving to the airfield in your beamer, gallivanting off to the South of France, how often are your chums (if any!) getting a chance to observe your decline?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mary
With all due respects to you as I know you have put a lot into aviation and still do! You are a shining light but not for the argument you appear to be making and I am not sure what that argument is?
You were instructing at the age of 77 and gave up after sadly having a stroke?
Aviation is not my only pastime I love Scuba diving and underwater photography and art so I very much doubt I will ever be flying when I reach 77 if I am still here by then!
If I found a serious problem medically that would be it!
Most people are sensible and have a duty to their loved ones not to kill themselves!
My son flies for EasyJet! Do you think he would be happy with me flying if he thought I was going GA GA ?
The obsessed care less types are few and far between and would soon be picked out by others in the aviation world as not being up to it!
Remember yourself instructing at 77 fantastic !!! The world champion base jumper 62 yrs of age and as you put it an old fart beating guys of 30
Extreme sports for old farts YES YES YES or you really will become an old fart way before time / there is plenty of time to be dead but not plenty of time on this earth!
Pace
With all due respects to you as I know you have put a lot into aviation and still do! You are a shining light but not for the argument you appear to be making and I am not sure what that argument is?
You were instructing at the age of 77 and gave up after sadly having a stroke?
Aviation is not my only pastime I love Scuba diving and underwater photography and art so I very much doubt I will ever be flying when I reach 77 if I am still here by then!
If I found a serious problem medically that would be it!
Most people are sensible and have a duty to their loved ones not to kill themselves!
My son flies for EasyJet! Do you think he would be happy with me flying if he thought I was going GA GA ?
The obsessed care less types are few and far between and would soon be picked out by others in the aviation world as not being up to it!
Remember yourself instructing at 77 fantastic !!! The world champion base jumper 62 yrs of age and as you put it an old fart beating guys of 30
Extreme sports for old farts YES YES YES or you really will become an old fart way before time / there is plenty of time to be dead but not plenty of time on this earth!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Jan 2014 at 12:40.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mary the reality is that if you are passionately involved in something you love doing you generally dont decline. ....well no where near as fast.
I once had a bunch of women on the airfield complaining bitterly about their hubby's being interested in aviation.
I pointed to a group of old pilots and asked how old they were.
when I pointed out that the guesses were about 20 years too young I asked them if they'd like their hubby's to be as active as that at the age.
for some odd reason the complaining stopped.
a lot of people age at the rate they expect to and not at the rate their bodies are actually ageing. keep on flying for as long as you want.
I once had a bunch of women on the airfield complaining bitterly about their hubby's being interested in aviation.
I pointed to a group of old pilots and asked how old they were.
when I pointed out that the guesses were about 20 years too young I asked them if they'd like their hubby's to be as active as that at the age.
for some odd reason the complaining stopped.
a lot of people age at the rate they expect to and not at the rate their bodies are actually ageing. keep on flying for as long as you want.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F900 Ex, thank you for your comment....the decision was in fact made for me by the doctors as the stroke was a consequence of an operation on a dodgy knee (got trapped between two yachts on the Solent ten years before).
Otherwise it is very likely as I was instructing in a gliding club, that the Chief Flying Instructor would have been told by other members that the old woman was starting to lose it, and he would have had a quiet word. Clearly the brain is still working to an acceptable standard, and as mentioned before, women last longer than men. In a club environment the gossip gets round so a pilot with a problem is more likely to get noticed.
The knee, I am pleased to report, works beautifully.
Otherwise it is very likely as I was instructing in a gliding club, that the Chief Flying Instructor would have been told by other members that the old woman was starting to lose it, and he would have had a quiet word. Clearly the brain is still working to an acceptable standard, and as mentioned before, women last longer than men. In a club environment the gossip gets round so a pilot with a problem is more likely to get noticed.
The knee, I am pleased to report, works beautifully.
Just a quick comment, but I think family and friends are best placed to 'suggest' that flying might need to end. I've seen it happen pretty effectively, in one case involving a Stanley knife and fabric on the primary aircraft being flown. I don't personally think the aviation medical requirement adds anything of value to this issue for private pilots.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mary
I feel i have rattled your cage somewhat? If so I apologise to you! I have always admired people who live their life and do not see age as a barrier.
People like the World champion base jumper at 62 quite a feat?
I have the same feelings with your postings someone still instructing at 77, forced out by a stroke but even so still actively involved with their passion albeit in a slightly different role.
I would have expected an opposite post from you so was rather surprised with this one.
Anyway my apologies if you have been upset at my defence of following your passion regardless of age but I cannot change that view.
Pace
I feel i have rattled your cage somewhat? If so I apologise to you! I have always admired people who live their life and do not see age as a barrier.
People like the World champion base jumper at 62 quite a feat?
I have the same feelings with your postings someone still instructing at 77, forced out by a stroke but even so still actively involved with their passion albeit in a slightly different role.
I would have expected an opposite post from you so was rather surprised with this one.
Anyway my apologies if you have been upset at my defence of following your passion regardless of age but I cannot change that view.
Pace
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Norfolk
Age: 85
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After more than 50 years in the instructing and examining business, the following observations of myself and others may be of interest. With advancing age, acquiring new physical and co-ordinative skills does take longer. Not a great problem if you accept it. I started skydiving in my 50's. Your handling skills also degrade, but to some extent are replaced by experience if you maintain regular practice, until I suspect they just fall off a cliff when it is definitely time to quit. Lastly, but probably most important is the progressive degradation of situational awareness, or the ability to keep track of and interpret a fast moving, complex or unexpected situation. On the ground, we just take things a bit more slowly but in the air this isn't always an option. Anyway the signs have told me it's time to quit as an FIE and FIC, but I will instruct for bit longer
