Hi - SP here, flare frsutration!

[StuartUK]

I had trouble with getting the height correct on the flare. I'd always flare to soon resulting in quite a firm landing. I read about a load of different techniques but one worked for me.

Assuming that you're happy with the approach on final and short final, maintain your approach attitude until you can start seeing definition in the landing strip. That might be the individual tyre marks on the asphalt, or the blades of grass on the green stuff. As soon as you see this start trying to hide the end of the runway with the nose of the plane. Don't go crazy, just a nice steady movement until it's hidden.

You'll probably be focusing on the numbers as you descend down final. As the numbers go underneath you pick another spot just in front of the nose. Keep doing this until you start seeing definition in the runway and then follow what I've said above.

It was the only thing that worked for me at the time. Once you've made a couple of good landings everything fits into place and you stop worrying about the flare.

Someone might advise against this technique as you wouldn't be able to rely on it at night but by the time you've finished your ppl you'll be landing by what feels right and not using a hard-and-fast rule/technique.

I agree with you about having a few instructors being a good thing. I found that it helped me as each of them would give me different hints and tips resulting, hopefully, in better piloting. However it was a bit annoying when they told me different ways of doing the same thing so I'd end up flying in a particular way to suit that specific instructor.

Good luck with it. It will suddenly click into place and you'll be wondering why you weren't able to do it sooner. Let us know when this happens and what technique worked for you.

[Arclite01]

StuartUK
Actually you make a great point there.

I worried that once I'd cracked landing that I'd fail next time or the time after that - but I never have.............it's 30 years now

Andy_P
I found learning to land a taildragger is best way to learn to land - if you can land that, you can easily land a tricycle undercarriage. In the taildragger the flare seems even more critical to me for the purposes of the 3 point landing. Since I learned that, I've landed a few Tricycles 'firmly' but never had a real problem.

That said, I found eventually I could land because my instructor actually 'taught' me to land - and let me land rather than take over or 'tweak it' at critical point of the flare like some instructors do......... and boy we landed all over the field until I got it..........

And concentrate on just landing - just because the instructor can land on the numbers or near the threshold doesn't mean you have to.........use the whole length if you need to - that allows for a nice flare and float before you touch down, you can learn to land short later on.

Finally - speed is key. If you are too fast you will probably bounce if you force the aeroplane onto the ground or balloon the landing if you over-flare, if too slow you will find yourself sinking below optimum glide slope and having to compensate with more power - this can lead to a premature 'arrival' and a 'harder than optimum' landing.

You will eventually form a mental picture of the flared attitude in your head and automatically align with that without even thinking about it.

Blimey, this post was meant to be a 1 liner........... hope it helps you

Arc

[localflighteast]

might be a simple suggestion but are you making sure that your seat is at the same height for each flight as well. This will affect your sight picture

People laugh at me because I insist on selecting a particular cushion for each plane (yes I'm short enough to require several cushions in a 172)
I've noticed that the heights on the seats are subtlety different , so I have to select my padding to correct for that.

[flarepilot]

1. some of the concepts glossed over so far are included IN DEPTH in "STICK AND RUDDER", including an exercise you can do at home which just amounts to standing on your toes and then coming down on your heals.

2. Seat height is vital, so vital that most airliners have EYE AIMERS to ensure that your adjust your seat just right.

3. depending on the plane, you could sit in the pilot seat and have your instructor hold the tail down so you can, at your leisure, see the flare or landing attitude (engine off, no money!).

4. one of the best exercises, with instructor, is to fly the length of the runway without landing, just above touchdown...do this a few times to a go-around...and then, just when everything looks right, the instructor can cut the throttle and you end up landing quite nicely.

5. judging flare height is covered in "stick and rudder" using everyday objects to actually judge height.

6. I am assuming you are a boy/man...and you should know what six inches is...men have been lying to women for many years about what six inches is and that is why women have been making such bad landings . ;-)


7. mentioning things like tire skids on runway to judge height is fine, and guess what, if you use a landing light at night, it works then too!


It takes a long time to learn how to land. Try going out to the instructor bench and sit there and watch others land. if you are not damaging the plane, you aren't doing too badly.


using multiple instructors isn't a good idea in my view...we don't do that out where I teach/taught.

[Chris1012]

I found a firm landing to be a good motivator! Didn't want to feel that horrible "this ride has just turned into an elevator" feeling again. The suggestions here are pretty good.
The only star piece of advice that stood out for me was when you're on the numbers don't look down at the runway, look up at the end of the runway. Mine were horrible in the beginning, never a problem with the approach, just rubbish landings.
Cracked the last landing one day and solo'd with the next day

[flarepilot]

just remember...learning to fly is something special...very few people ever solo a plane.

work at it

don't be hard on yourself if you don't figure it out right away.

try if you can, to explain to me the purpose of landing, the method of landing.

flight instructors (Certified Flight Instructors-airplane) are called instructors because they cannot really teach you how to fly.

your brain has to figure out how to fly/pilot a plane...an instructor can give you knowledge but your brain has to teach itself to handle a machine in more dimensions than you normally use.

we also really try to make sure you don't kill yourself or anyone else while you are sorting it out in your brain.


by the way, what kind of plane are you flying?

[Andy_P]

Originally Posted by flarepilot

we also really try to make sure you don't kill yourself or anyone else while you are sorting it out in your brain.


by the way, what kind of plane are you flying?

No intention of killing myself or anyone else for that matter! I was adamant with the instructors right from the begging that if I am not getting it, then let me know. I am sure there are plenty of pilots who have obtained a licence but should never be allowed to fly as PIC.

I am flying Cessna 172SP's, mostly in the g1000 cockpit but have done a few hours in the older SP's with analogue instruments. I can switch between the 2 fairly easily.

Anyway, I have digested what everyone here has said, and will chew over it till my next flight (next Thursday was the earliest I could get).

Bought that book by the way. Arrives 31st December (amazon) so will probably have the landing sorted by then! Any reading is good reading though, might help me through my BAK and PPL exams!

[Andy_P]

Just read the details on the medical, 28 days to process via casa plus another 28 days for complex cases. I am a chronic asthmatic, so the examiner reckon casa might want me to go see a respiratory specialist first. Given the time frames with Casa, I wont see a medical to December and given the holiday period maybe even Jan. Add to that another 4 weeks for them to process my actual SPL, Probably Feb-Mar before I could legally do a solo. By then I will be at 40 hours, well past solo stage

So, plenty of time to practice getting my landing sorted.

[RatherBeFlying]

For your medical, contact your aviation medical examiner to see what extra information from the doc managing your asthma he wants. Take that information with you to your aviation doc. He will forward it to casa.

That's my guess from Canada -- check with your Oz aviation doc. There should be less delay if they already have the information than if they have to write your doc to get it.

Lots of good hints on the flare.

Sometimes I take people up a TV antenna mast to demonstrate the height where you can see individual grass blades or runway texture. That's your flare height.

[Steve6443]

I"m reading all the hints and tips here and each time such a topic comes up I think to myself: how do I land the plane? The answer: as most people have said: at some point it just clicked.

I don't "look along to the end of the runway" - well, at least I don't think I do, not consciously at least. I also don't look for something to come into view to let me know it's time to start flaring, such as tarmac markings or blades of grass. It just sort of happens, but I was once just like you, wondering will I ever get it, so my message is this:

don't be despondent, just keep practising because one day it WILL click.

It did so for me - there I was, pounding circuits when it suddenly clicked. My instructor stopped shouting "pull the stick back". Nowadays, I sometimes perform a landing which I'm pretty proud of, decide to post it on YouTube to allow myself to marvel over whenever I want. However, true to what Piperboy84 has already said, having performed such a near perfect landing, I then go off and perform 3 howlers, surprisingly enough the recordings of those landings NEVER see the light of day.......

Enjoy your flying, take heart in the fact that what you are going through we've ALL gone through - but it's worth it in the end......

[Chris1012]

Steve touches on a good point, if you can, get a go pro or something and record your landings. Landings I thought were rubbish weren't actually that bad and ones I thought were great turned out to be the instructors thumbs (tweaking).
Being able to dissect where exactly I started to go wrong between the transition of approach and landing and what action I took at that point was very useful for me.
Also probably why I never had such a problem with approaches.
Sucks about the 40 hours thing, solo or under instruction though, flying is still fun

[tecman]

Lot of good advice and some personal tips which may or may not work for you. Thinking back on my own experiences, and reflecting on 30 years of flying since then, I'd add a few comments which you might find useful. First, manage your expectations. It is possible to over-think this: it's a skill you're acquiring, not a precise formula you can regurgitate in the same way every time. Do it enough times with a competent instructor and it will gell eventually. Concentrate on making a good approach and arriving at the threshold with the speed right. A pet peeve of mine these days is the tendency of too many pilots to use excess approach speed, for a variety of poor reasons.

Second, you're not a passenger during the landing - make it happen. The penny dropped for me when a QF check captain told me that you never allow the aircraft to touch down until it's precisely where you want it: acceptable speed, nose attitude correct, drift compensated, etc. It sounds simple but until that time I believe I was too reluctant to positively control the process.

Third, I support the ideas posted above for considering the typical nose attitude when the pressure is off: too easy to forget what you're shooting for in the heat of the operation.

Finally, I also found the exercise of trying to fly a few cm above the runway to be a good way of learning to land. Lots of things need to come together in your brain but for me this particular exercise was one of the more important things I did.

I wouldn't personally make the multiple instructor choice but obviously do whatever works for you. But make sure you're making the choice based on learning outcomes and not as a way of avoiding critical feedback from any one individual.

Best of luck and enjoy your flying.

[Mechta]

Two things that work for me:

1. Look at the far end of the runway
2. Don't try and land. Instead, with the throttle closed, keep flying for as you possibly can and a smooth landing will be the end result.

[MyMeowCat]

Yeah I'm in the same position as the original poster. I've been at this like 20 times now and my landings still aren't good enough to go solo. I'm almost at a point where I think I might have some kind of mental disorder Maybe it is because us engineers think differently than most common people that makes the landing hard to get. I've made just about every mistake there is to make. I have made some good improvements recently so here's something from one engineer to another about what might help.

The book "Stick and Rudder" jokes about how pilots are "dumber" than an educated man and how educated men make bad pilots because they would fixate on the instruments....where as a dumber person have their eyes going all over the place and doing an effective instrument scan. Something like this was happening to me ---although I was not fixating at the instruments --- I was indeed fixating at the aiming point (or the numbers). The books say to have the numbers/runway not moving up or down on your glare shield so I would aim at the spot. The problem is that I would "stare" at the numbers and this is a problem because:

1) I would look only at the numbers then round out and then look down the runway when the instructor yells at me to do so. At this point since the ground came up so fast I end up in balloons or bounces. Sometimes I round out too soon and stall the plane a feet off the ground.

2) When I stare at the numbers I become fixated and the numbers seem to "hypnotize" me.

I found that it was more effective to do the following:

a) On approach to start looking all over the runway and the immediate environment. I would make a conscious effort to move my head (not just my eye balls) all around to note the end of the runway, the center line, the runway sides and the hangar buildings ect. (Stick and Rudder says to use the buildings to make your perspective) in an attempt to not be "fixated" or hypnotized. If I move my eyes around I bit I avoid being like the deer looking at the headlights.

b) Start rounding out BEFORE you get to the aiming point instead of right at the aiming point.

c) I find sometimes if I momentarily glance 45 degrees to the centerline or sometimes 90 degrees(looking right out my shoulder/window) it seems to give me a better idea how far off the ground I am.

The instructors think I have an energy management issue even when I am crossing the threshold at 65 knots as per the C172 POH. Another thing to note here is that "site picture" thing doesn't work for me much because everytime I approach it is at different speeds, different glide slope angles, different winds, ect.

The thing is instructors can easily and objectively nail you if you are not at the instrument numbers like airspeed being too high or too low...but glide slope is more subjective and they might not point out if you are too high or low. I found that when I was going 65 knots and a STEEP angle I could still have the numbers not moving on the glare shield....when I round out I think this extra height or"steepness" of the glide slope translates into extra forward energy and causes things like ballooning, floating, bounces, ect. I found in a lot of cases it felt like the aircraft was in ground effect and sliding on ice and my wings would wobble and I would drift off of the centerline...at this point it is very hard to get or maintain that "site picture". They tell me to look down the runway slightly left but then I become "fixated" at the point slightly left at the end of the runway --- and not knowing really what to look for.

I think that 65 knots they recommend is a simplified formula to prevent stalls and account for winds/gusts. I'm finding if I go 65 knots for most of the final but slow it down to 60 knots over the threshold that I seem to have a bit more control. It also helps to be at the right glide slope angle. I used to have a habit of being too high with a steep approach at 20 degrees of flap.

An instructor said something eye opening the other day. I mentioned my flare was screwed up and he said my flares are OK that day --- it is just that I had too much energy or momentum. I think this implies if you have too much kinetic energy some how that it actually screws up your flare/round-out stage....not just floating down the runway but it also puts you in ground effect where you wobble all over a cushion of air and drift/lose control, bounce, ect. In other words I had too much kinetic energy and it screws up the round-out/flare then I end up blaming my flare /round-out instead of the kinetic energy.

Try this ---- cut some speed and aim for 60 knots over the threshold (but try not to go so slow as you may stall).. Make sure your glide slope is not too steep. I remember in our books they show pictures of how a runway will look if you are going to over-shoot,under-shoot and right on the ideal slope. Make sure you are at the ideal slope because it is quite possible to come in steep and have the runway "shape" look like the over-shoot picture BUT still not have the numbers/aim point move up or down on the windshield while still being on the recommended approach speed. When you get close to the aim point --- do not become fixated and actively look around. Look at the end of the runway and all over the runway before you round-out....the idea is to prevent from being fixated.

[flarepilot]

mymeow cat


you have "stick and rudder"...well, then you didn't read it well enough.

there is a section on the so called, ''stall down landing''...this will help you in energy management.

another thing, the POH most likely quotes the max weight landing speed...and most POHs have charts to use different speeds when you work out a proper weight and balance for landing.

as most of the ppruners know, airliners change speeds for landing based upon weight.

well, it matters in little planes too.


I knew one pilot who was very intelligent, just a wonderful person. A neurologist, a teacher of other doctors at Standford. He was taking lessons from another instructor and I gave him sort of a phase check.

He couldn't flare well. I looked at his sunglasses...they were the kind with sort of leather flaps on the side, like a mountain climber or glacier explorer might wear. Maybe you all have seen them? He called them his Denali glasses (Mt Mckinley in Alaska I think).

I said: doc, you have no side vision. save those glasses for mountain climbing and try my RAY BAN aviators.

We went around the PATTERN (not circuit) again and he did fine.

ASK yourself about your vision...is anything compromising it? Do you wear corrective lenses?

Oh, and those darn cessnas with the high wing...try flying a piper cherokee/warrior, archer...see if things are better!

[Andy_P]

Originally Posted by MyMeowCat

Maybe it is because us engineers think differently than most common people that makes the landing hard to get

Lol. Engineer here too!

Interesting how you mention speed. My instructors are pretty strict on keeping the 65knots. I have noticed on gusty days, they even up the speeds, often 70knots and as fast as 80knots sometimes.

I am up on Thursday morning, so I am going to pay a lot of attention to where I am looking. Now I think about it, I may be starting at the numbers for too long. If I am aware of it, I can correct it.

On a side note, got a surprise yesterday and my medical turned up in the mail! So sent off all my SPL docs today. Hopefully I will have a licence before christmas?

[Crash one]

I've heard people say "add half the gust plus 5 plus another 5 for the wife & kids". It's bull****e, as another engineer, it's like saying "leave it a few thou plus & it will fit better. Well it will either rattle or not go at all innit? I don't think it's engineering, it's fizix, at 70/80 knots its flying, not landing!!

[Andy_P]

When I say 70-80knots, that is on final. Once the threshold disappears its down to idle. May or may not be correct, but most people seem to do that. Its a coastal strip, so 15knots of breeze is not uncommon, with some or most of that as a crosswind.

Dont get me wrong here, I have been taught 65 knots for final, so thats what I fly.

[Andy_P]

EDIT. Just read POH, final approach with 30 degrees flap is 60-70knots, no flap is 65-75knots which marries up with what I have observed. The powerpoint slide I was given shows 65knot final with full flap, so that is what I have been practicing. I am now reading more and more into the POH, so more exact figures are being learned.

Aircraft is Cessna 172S, with G1000, but the POH for the 172S with analog instruments shows the same figures.

Side note, when I first started flying, I hated the G1000, now growing to like it. Plus the g1000's are a new aircraft and the one I have had for the last 4 hours (and next 3+ hours) has about 500 hours up (I actually did one hour in it when it was new new). There is a huge difference in the way the new v old feel. The main thing that stands out to me, is the 500 hour aircraft is easier to taxi than the 5000 hour aircraft. Things just seem to respond better! May well be my imagination as I am getting the hours up (probable!)!

[tecman]

I think you want to aim for some clarity of thought here and try not to conflate different situations, configurations and recommended speeds. Reading the POH is definitely a good start and, as someone pointed out, the speeds therein can be safely taken as 'worst case' for all but the most extreme situations. For example, I can't think of any self-imposed situation where I'd fly an 80 kt final in a C172, even flapless. The only reason might be an operational one in complying with an ATC sequencing request, which I assume you're not worried about at this point. In a normal training situation, with two blokes in a nice new 172, you can safely assume you'll have "energy management" issues if you cross the threshold at more than 60 kts.

A number of posters have mentioned the importance of not succumbing to the trap of excess speed and it's something I'd strongly endorse. It is possible to drive a C172 to land, with a long hold off and a poor flare, but it's not something you want to be doing on those inland Qld strips you'll no doubt get to try during your navs. With many short, rough strips you'll get to appreciate the beauty of lots of Cessna drag, and precise approach control with power. That will all come a lot easier if you learn a good approach and flare technique, with moderate speeds, at the outset.

As you fly more types of aircraft you'll find there are many 'slicker' aircraft than Cessna's. With many of those aircraft, ranging from some of the LSAs to Lancairs etc, the speed control is really important - you just don't have those Cessna barn door flaps to save you!