Departure ATIS

[englishal]

Why do some airports only have a 'departure' ATIS ? I once got a 'bollocking' from an instructor during a dual check for picking up the ATIS before requesting the rejoin. I was told I didn't need to as it was 'departure' ATIS.....? ATIS is ATIS.....isn't it?, especially when there is no 'arrival' ATIS.

Secondly, if an airport runway has multiple instrument approaches, ie. ILS30, VOR30, NDB30, in the UK how do you know which approach is in use? I would assume it would be broadcast with the ATIS?

Cheers
EA

[Stan Evil]

The main difference between a departure ATIS and an arrival ATIS is the frequency it's transmitted on. Departure ATIS frequencies are reused at quite nearby airfields (Bournemouth Dep ATIS 121.95, Oxford Ground 121.95) and so, in the air, you may well get interference when you try to listen to a Departure ATIS. Arrival ATIS frequencies are used more sparingly. It's nonsense to say that you can't listen to a departure ATIS on arrival. It can save RT exchanges but you need to be aware of its limitations. Some ATC units, like Bournemouth, expect their home-based a/c to use the Dep ATIS on recovery but I have come across the odd ATC unit that get all pompous about it being a Departure ATIS.

[englishal]

Ok, makes sense now. Although even at EGHH I'd still pick-up the ATIS prior to entering the zone, if for nothing else than to give me a good indication of wind / runways etc...suppose its habit really....

Cheers
EA

[Chilli Monster]

Which Approach?

Secondly, if an airport runway has multiple instrument approaches, ie. ILS30, VOR30, NDB30, in the UK how do you know which approach is in use?

All of them - the one's you quote are for the same runway. You can either pick the type of approach you want (if you're training) or you'll get told which you'll have . If the Controller has a sequence going and wants the least delay for everyone to get every aircraft down then expect the latter to happen - but you may get offered a choice.

However - if you pick a full NDB procedure when everyone else is being radar vectored and it's busy then expect to hold at a higher level and have a long wait

CM

[Hermie]

Hi,

Just wondering...

Say for example ;

Richard is on arrival frequency tune in, 119.7

He wants to listen to the ATIS. Is there such thing as listening to the ATIS concurrently with given instructions from the arrival controller ?

THANKS IN ADVANCE

Cheers,
Herman

[QNH 1013]

If I've understood your question correctly, then the answer is yes.
Providing the aircraft has two com radios (a requirement for flight in the airways which are class A airspace) then the audio selector panel in the aircraft will allow the receiver output from the second radio to be connected to the headsets. By selecting the ATIS frequency on the second radio and adjusting the volume to be less than that from the first radio which is of course tuned to ATC, it is quite easy to copy the ATIS during pauses between transmissions on the main "in-use" frequency.
If you do an Instrument Rating you will be expected to use this technique so that you don't miss any ATC calls while getting the ATIS at your destination. Its the same technique you use to listen to the VOR and NDB morse idents.

Although I'm not a sports fan, I'm told that the same technique, but using the ADF (which works on medium wave), allows one to keep up to date with the cricket scores.

[Chilli Monster]

Hermie

Depends on the Comms set up in the aircraft. Even in my little Warrior you can dial up and listen to one frequency on one box whilst also listening and transmitting on another.

CM

[RotorHorn]

...and if you've only got one radio, then request a frequency change for two minutes to get the ATIS and tell them 'you'll report when back on frequency', that way they know a).you're not listening, and b). you'll be back!!

"Posh" helo's with 2 radios can even talk 'vox 2' to another controller e.g. in the next control zone on your flight plan to warn them you're coming.... can get very confusing though!!!

[Julian]

Yep if the aircraft has 2 radios, during my IR I was taught to monitor the ATIS on the second comm set but with the volume low so you can just about hear it but it wont interfere with ATC communications.

As for not listening to the departure ATIS the instructor must must be mad!! When you are commencing an approach, especially if into an unfamiliar airport, you want all the info you can get. Ask the instructor how he would know if any rwys are u/s if he didn't get the ATIS? Apart from asking ATC loads of questions and generally blokcing the airways you can't! The ATIS is a valuable source of info and to ignore it when its provided seems mad.

[englishal]

I agree, its there so might as well use it, rather than wait for the approach controller to tell you to 'expect runway XXX' and then the tower controller to tell you wind etc.

If the 'prefered' instrument approach was broadcast on ATIS then it may be possible to receive it up to 50nm from the airfield, giving more time to prepare and double check headings / times / minimums etc, rather than wait to be told.

In places like EGHH where there is departure information but no arrival info, why not scrap the 'departure' info and broadcast both departure and arrival info on the same frequency, seems to make sense...

Cheers
EA

[Hermie]

THANKS ALOT

Here is another one ;

I realised that the ATIS changes every 30mins. Say your about 10-20 miles from touchdown. When you initially entered the airspace, information was Alpha, Landing RWY 20. Now that you are 10-20 miles from touchdown and information has changed, Landing RWY 02.

What would the ATC make you do ? Or your on a super final approach and wind direction suddenly change...?

Thanks in advance

Cheers,
Herman

[N R D Kay]

Hermie,

I think ATC have the responsibility to control you once the original contract has been made. We are talking about an information service after all.

Neil

[Chilli Monster]

I agree, its there so might as well use it, rather than wait for the approach controller to tell you to 'expect runway XXX' and then the tower controller to tell you wind etc.

Approach will always re-iterate the runway, even if it's on an ATIS, as it's easy for people to get it wrong. As for your comment about using ATIS wind rather than have a tower controller give it you bear this in mind. The wind on the ATIS is a 10 minute average and may be up to an hour old - what tower gives you is normally a 2 minute average over the 2 minutes before he gives it you - which one do YOU think is more accurate? Bearing how changeable this particular piece of weather data is I know which one I'd rather have

CM

[Hermie]

Thanks people for the reply, appreciate them.

Good Day ...

Cheers,
Herman

[englishal]

CM,

I didn't make myself very clear I didn't mean ATIS to replace any verbal instructions from controllers, but to add an extra level of information. I'm used to flying IFR in the US, and always pick up the ATIS at the destination as soon as possible, (50nm + possibly) so I can prepare for the approach, missed approach, and 'mentally' prepare for the landing. If all the required info is broadcast on the ATIS then I can set myself up early, and once in contact with the last approach controller he / she will usually confirm what I already know, so normally there are no big surprises (there's always the exception though...)

I suppose somewhere like EGHH you could 'assume' that RW 26 is in use in a SW wind situation and 'assume' that the ILS DME 26 approach is in use......You're right though, that there is no substitute for actual wind conditions, rather that relying on the ATIS broadcast, especially during the later stages of the approach and landing....

Cheers
EA

[Circuit Basher]

Having flown a lot from EGHH, I would always use the ATIS as an arrival / departure aid, so I know roughly what to expect. On initial contact, just tell ATC 'G-BLAH with Information xx overhead xxx, altitude xxx on QNH xxxx, etc'. ATC then know what vintage ATIS info you're working with and will advise you if this is no longer current, etc.

AIUI, ATIS info will be updated (if needed) at 20 and 50 mins past the hour (certainly for EGHH), so you'll have some idea of when to check for updates.

[FlyingForFun]

Hermie,

Your question about ATIS being updated: I don't fly from ATC fields very often in the UK, but this is how it worked when I was the in US - I assume it would be similar over here.

Whenever the ATIS is updated, ATC will "general broadcast" the new ATIS letter, runway, wind, and anything else important.

Occasionally, the ATIS will be updated between you listening to it, and making initial contact. In that case, the conversation would go:

"G-ABCD, <all the other initial contact information> with information Delta"

"G-CD, information Echo is now current, wind is xxx@yy, runway zz is in use......"

So, either way, no problem, you'll get all the information you need.

FFF
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