A Cessna 172 is too difficult to land...

[flyinkiwi]

Yeah I see far too many people who do not round out properly. In a high wing it is very important.

[Pilot DAR]

Most landings are way way to flat

'Cause some instructors TRAIN that! I was horrified when I was "checked out" in the DA-42, to do flight testing on it. The company pilot insisted that I three point it. "What?". "That's how you land a DA-42".

Okay, so I did just to satisfy him, and then made every landing a gentle two point, hold the nose off 'till I ran out of control. The plane was perfectly fine with that technique. I worry about who trained him!

[thing]

There's a DA42 at our place that lands flat, it also takes off seemingly with no rotation, it just lifts into the air.

[foxmoth]

The company pilot insisted that I three point it. "What?". "That's how you land a DA-42".

A different technique like that should be in the POH - I certainly could not see anything to suggest that.

[Pilot DAR]

I often see pilots, operators and instructors who have different ideas about how the aircraft should be operated. Certainly reduction on wear and tear is a great idea when you can. But, using the example of the DA-42, the check pilot mistakenly thought that trying to preserve a nylon skid on the tail by three pointing it was a better idea than reducing wear and tear on the nosewheel.

The failure of the nosewheel will be more likely, and very much more serious than wear and tear on a tail skid, if you even can drag it, I did not.

It is admirable that pilots think about their operations in the context of aircraft condition, but the normal operating techniques, and manufacturer's recommended practices are always best.

For landing, rarely do I see a pilot really trying to be gentle, though it is more likely if they own the plane. I remember a pilot flying in to meet myself and two of my kids to take us for a mountain sightseeing flight. Though I'm confident to fly, single engine over the Rocky Mountains raises my awareness of safety, and causes me to consider the pilot's skills more than I otherwise might. I saw a C210, touch down with superb grace, and the nosewheel smoothly held off, until it gently settled on its own with full nose up elevator maintained. Right then and there, I judged the pilot to be of excellent skill, and that he was.

New pilots: It might be a very small part of your flying, but the grace and precision of your landings, and effort you place on these skills speak volumes about how you treat the aircraft in general, and will certainly shape the opinion of observers. Some of these observers might be deciding if they should give you the plane again next time

Then, on the other hand, if the operator of the aircraft does not care how you treat it, that's a whole different problem!

[jetsetter250]

Hmm, my instructor taught me to land nose first in a 172, to let the shocks eat up the impact and then gently rest it down on the main gear so you dont jar your passengers.

I kid, I kid. You'll be happy to know I was taught to hit full elevator deflection and ride out that wheelie until the plane cant hold itself up anymore.

[foxmoth]

I kid, I kid

Phew! For a second I thought you were being serious!

[m.Berger]

As a new pilot, coming to terms with a draggy 40hp single seat taildragger of very pronounced pitch disturbance when the power is adjusted, The last few seconds have thus far been heart in mouth events. Cutting the power at what seemed to be the right height causes the aircraft to slow down fast horizontally but speed up vertically! The glide approach is out of the question for the time being but I think I would be better off keeping the power in until the wheels touch. Assuming a runway of infinite length, the power only has to be reduced until the aircraft descends slowly, and eventually it ought to touch down nicely as long as the speed is dead right. So given a runway of finite length, I have to nail the height over the threshold to achieve this, get the speed right and just nold my nerve until I can get it to run out of height as it runs out of flight. Then the footwork begins. It is another level compared to the trike I learned in and it takes time for my old brain to take it in; (experience makes reflexes.)
Some of us aren't natural sky Gods. We work hard at it. It doesn't stop us trying to do it well but aptitude needs time to develop. The GST only gets you the licence to learn, after all.

[foxmoth]

mB - totally different scenario - you are talking an aircraft that needs work to get right - then jump in other aircraft and you will have little problem, this thread is really about aircraft that should be easy to land and pilots STILL get it wrong!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So given a runway of finite length, I have to nail the height over the threshold to achieve this, get the speed right and just nold my nerve until I can get it to run out of height as it runs out of flight.

That, I'm told, is how you land a floatplane when you can't see the surface of the water, get the speed and rate of descent right and just keep flying until you hit the water. (I haven't come across glassy water myself in my limited playing with floatplanes.)

[IFMU]

Confession: my first ever landing in a 172 was on the nosewheel. I had about 100 hours of tailwheel time and no tricycle gear time. I favored wheel landings. I put it down very smooth and straight but the instructor set me right of course! Now I am a couple decades on and I do have the nosewheel thing figgered out. The 172 is a great airplane though I spend more time in the C140.
Bryan

[Pilot DAR]

Assuming a runway of infinite length, the power only has to be reduced until the aircraft descends slowly, and eventually it ought to touch down nicely as long as the speed is dead right

Yes, bare frozen lakes are good for this. There is a power setting which can be flown to get you to exactly CLmax, and hold you there. This will give you a landing which the the opposite of a glide approach. You can spend as long as you want in the flare. Obviously this is not normally done over the ground, as you'll run out, and there is a risk of touching down with a bit of drift. It is not good to sustain this in a floatplane, the plane will become very difficult to control. You can use this technique to get yourself to the surface safely when you cannot judge your height, but once you touch at all, it's either power off and land, or power full, and go around.

The floatplane glassy water landing is a variation of this, though a definite descent rate is important, 100 to 200 FPM does it. It takes a lot of nerve to descend until you contact while holding everything still. This may also have to be done when landing skis on unbroken snow, but that is high risk flying. You don't do that just for fun - it's not! It can be done on wheels too, but you get a pretty hard landing out of it.

In my flying boat the power on landing is entirely possible, because flying boats land quite differently to floatplanes. With just the right wind and water conditions once, I found a power setting at which I could fly, flare, touch down, plane on the step, takeoff again, fly, flare...... all without changing the power setting at all. The whole flight was in [water] effect, and it was a delicate management of drag.

I'll entertain myself doing this in the 150 on the ice, though some caution is required, as it is possible to bang the tail tiedown ring first if one is not cautious. I can go along for miles touching alternate main wheels, or "flying" with one main on, and the other off (you have to add a bit of power for that, to compensate the drag of the deflected ailerons.

[Unusual Attitude]

That looks like most of my Crosswind Landings....

[Desert185]

Glassy water, milky/glacial water and ski flying in flat light conditions all have the same depth perception issues for landing. With practice, one knows where the wheels are, but floats/skis can be a guess given certain conditions.

[Pace]

Not enough pilots have the right feel for an aircraft and become like unwilling passengers hoping it will all turn out OK in the last fifty feet.

After a nasty fog experience in a light twin I wanted to see if its possible to land off an ILS blind in thick fog.

I did this with a safety pilot and on an ILS in VMC. it was a case of accurately flying the needles and using a radar altimeter for a flare point. Worked a treat.
Another friend did it for real in a KingAir on a ferry where they badly messed up and were forced to land blind.

in VMC while you need to be at the right speed to touch down at or near the stall with a sink to the runway for stopping distances landing and stall are not really so closely tied to land an aircraft.
the longer the distance between nose wheel and mains the faster an aircraft can land.

Another friend with severe handling problems landed a citation,normal VREF 105 kts at a radar estimated speed of 200 kts touch down speed! He even stopped on the runway at Edinburgh **** scared but he landed ask Mad Jock who was there at the time.

so its a matter of knowing your aircraft and its characteristics and adjusting your flying to suit and of course knowing how to handle the aircraft

Most landings are way way to flat
'Cause some instructors TRAIN that! I was horrified when I was "checked out" in the DA-42, to do flight testing on it. The company pilot insisted that I three point it. "What?". "That's how you land a DA-42".

Okay, so I did just to satisfy him, and then made every landing a gentle two point, hold the nose off 'till I ran out of control. The plane was perfectly fine with that technique. I worry about who trained him!

Usually flat landing are caused by bad trimming! Get the aircraft trimmed well back so a slight forward pressure on the column is required to maintain the glide! speed control is vital if you are going for a near the stall landing or you will end up floating down the runway or heading skywards.
How likely you are to land on the nose also depends on the coupling nose to mains. Short coupled you are far more likely to land flat or on the nose than long coupled! Know your aircraft
Pace

[Pilot DAR]

With practice, one knows where the wheels are, but floats/skis can be a guess given certain conditions.

Happily, for most of the planes I fly, I know exactly where the wheels or keels are. However, the key point, is on glassy water or unbroken snow, you really do not know where the whole plane is!

If you are higher than you think you are, you'll likely drop it on, though might save it with a whole bunch of power when you realize. If you're lower than you think you are, slamming it on is very likely. A wheel or ski plane might survive this, but a floatplane/flying boat will not - you're going over (whole or broken).

I can assure readers that over glassy water, you might not be able to judge your altitude to within 20 feet. This is why demonstrating glassy water proficiency is a requirement to earn a float rating. There are tricks, but sometimes you just have to handle it with your skill.

[India Four Two]

However, the key point, is on glassy water or unbroken snow, you really do not know where the whole plane is!

I'll second Pilot DAR's comment. I remember a glassy-water landing on a lake in BC where I was absolutely convinced that the floats were about to touch the water and yet it was at least another 10 seconds (and 50' or so of altitude) before there was that lovely hissing noise as the keels touched. Unless you've experienced it yourself, it's hard to believe how strong the illusion of being close to the water is.

I've read in float-flying books that one option is to throw out a cushion or life-jacket to give an aiming point and height reference for an approach. Just hope there are no TC/FAA/CAA inspectors watching and waiting to write you up for dropping things from an aircraft

[Ka6crpe]

jetsetter, you need to fly gliders....look up your local club. No go around, get it right first time. Probably don't need to bother with radio, not too many instruments to get in the way of getting the feel of it. Simples.

hehe. This sounds familiar. In my 50 year old Ka6: The altimeter sticks, then jumps a couple of hundred feet; The mechanical vario is tempremental and only ever reads max up or max down, but the audio vario works fine; the ASI is optimistic; some idiot (me perhaps? ) connected the radio with the wrong polarity so now it is intermittant.

Basically the only instruments that can be relied on are the piece of wool that is the slip indicator, and my own Mk1 eyeballs. However I do remain compliant and the transponder works fine. I do carry a hand held radio and GPS if I'm anywhere near controlled airspace, and the GPS gives a good idea of altitude and rate of climb.

However it is amusing to take off with almost no instruments and outclimb the modern glass gliders in light thermals. I'm almost disappointed that the annual inspection is due next month and I've get to fix all those uneccessary instruments.

[3 Point]

Generally agree with most of the comments here about landing tricycle gear aeroplanes and protecting the nosewheel but I am not in favour of holding the nosewheel off till you reach full up elevator then letting it fall of its own accord. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say this is bad technique.

If you hold off till you run out of control and then let he nosewheel fall out of control it can come down with a bang - not much mechanical sympathy there! You should really fly the nosewheel onto the ground before running out of control. Usually, if you hold a constant elevator position once down on the two mains and with the nosewheel still held off the reducing airspeed (and consequently reducing elevator effectivness) will allow the nose to come down gracefully to a smooth touchdown. Doing it this way means you still have some elevator authority to "land" the nosewheel if required and stop it crashing down with a bump.

Similar commets apply to wheeler landings in a taildragger. I've heard people (and in fact, one otherwise very well written book) advising that the stick should go progressively forward till it is full forward and the tail drops of its own accord. Makes no sense to me to try to keep one wheel airborne until you lose control and it comes crashing down! Hold a constant elevator position and let the tailwheel descend gently as the airspeed reduces. You then have some elevator authority in reserve in case you need to cushion the tailwheel touchdown.

Happy landings

3 Point

[abgd]

The first time I ever cliff-launched a hang-glider I discovered another visual trick - with a bit of wind in my eyes I flared to land and found that the ground was missing. Looking down I discovered that I couldn't tell whether the surface was to be pebbles or boulders. It was a long wait - albeit probably not more than a second or two - before my boots met the ground. Luckily with a wing loading of a pound per square foot you can get away with a lot...