Taildragger course
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Taildragger course
Hi all,
I am looking to do a taildragger and maybe a grass strip course in Scotland or Wales. Can anybody recommend a school?
I'm hoping to do all the flying in four or 5 days, weather dependent of course!
I am looking to do a taildragger and maybe a grass strip course in Scotland or Wales. Can anybody recommend a school?
I'm hoping to do all the flying in four or 5 days, weather dependent of course!
Join Date: Dec 1999
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You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how. There's nothing special about it, just a slightly different technique for t/o and landing.
Grass strip? What do you need to know about that? Tarmac is black, grass is green. Farmstrips; again, a ride with someone familiar with them is enough if you feel the need, you did short-field take off and landing in your PPL training, what else do you need?
Grass strip? What do you need to know about that? Tarmac is black, grass is green. Farmstrips; again, a ride with someone familiar with them is enough if you feel the need, you did short-field take off and landing in your PPL training, what else do you need?
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www.scotflightaeros.com at Perth Airport using a modern Decathalon.
Dai Heather-Hays, 01738 551498 at the same airfield in a Pitts.
D.O.
Dai Heather-Hays, 01738 551498 at the same airfield in a Pitts.
D.O.
Moderator
You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how
There is way too much DIY in flight training, why would a person not seek out proper training. Proper tailwheel training is becoming more of a lost art. I have personally watched several taildragger instruction sessions (with a real "instructor" and everything!) go wrong. This "instructor" did this right in front of me, while I was hovering, waiting to pass behind him...
I was not properly trained to fly taildraggers, but at the time did not know the difference. It was only after decades of flying them, and taking advice from really experienced taildragger pilots who saw my errors, that I began to get it right. Many pilots and instructors I see can't even land a tricycle properly, how would they ever manage a taildragger properly! I wish I'd had the training done properly in the first place. It is worth your effort, so keep looking....
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I am a taildragger pilot. I learnt on an Auster J1B.
you will learn a number of landing techniques. a tail high "wheeler", a tail low "3 Pointer" and a wing low "2 pointer" for high crosswind landings.
the last one you may have to learn yourself as a matter of desperation one day. after your training most of your landings will be 3 pointers because they are the slowest and you pull up quickest.
there are 4 things that you need to get right just at the point of landing for a perfect 3 pointer.
1. have the fuselage precisely aligned in the direction of flight.
2. have no sideslip occurring.
3. land at the slowest speed possible, typically with full aft stick or nearly so.
4. have no vertical speed at the moment of touchdown.
if you get all 4 of these right you will grease it on with no bounce.
your instructor can tell you why each of these aspects of the landing is important but basically all the force tendencies that lead to a ground loop are removed by the technique.
groundloops are a big bugaboo but with good technique you'll never experience one. I haven't. btw if you want a really really vicious ground loop just wheelbarrow a cessna or piper in on the nose wheel. that'll shake your confidence!
I warn you that you may be ruined by learning to fly a taildragger. I myself was ruined to the point that I have not flown with a nosewheel since.
you may come close to tears of frustration, especially if you learn in an Auster, but persist and you'll become a real pilot.
you will learn a number of landing techniques. a tail high "wheeler", a tail low "3 Pointer" and a wing low "2 pointer" for high crosswind landings.
the last one you may have to learn yourself as a matter of desperation one day. after your training most of your landings will be 3 pointers because they are the slowest and you pull up quickest.
there are 4 things that you need to get right just at the point of landing for a perfect 3 pointer.
1. have the fuselage precisely aligned in the direction of flight.
2. have no sideslip occurring.
3. land at the slowest speed possible, typically with full aft stick or nearly so.
4. have no vertical speed at the moment of touchdown.
if you get all 4 of these right you will grease it on with no bounce.
your instructor can tell you why each of these aspects of the landing is important but basically all the force tendencies that lead to a ground loop are removed by the technique.
groundloops are a big bugaboo but with good technique you'll never experience one. I haven't. btw if you want a really really vicious ground loop just wheelbarrow a cessna or piper in on the nose wheel. that'll shake your confidence!
I warn you that you may be ruined by learning to fly a taildragger. I myself was ruined to the point that I have not flown with a nosewheel since.
you may come close to tears of frustration, especially if you learn in an Auster, but persist and you'll become a real pilot.
Moderator
W8 has offered a good post, though there is more beyond that. What [he] says is appropriate for most types of tailwheel aircraft, but not all.
My Thruston Teal taildragger must be wheel landed to get the most consistent good landings. I learned this by happenstance, after many frustrating attempts to three point it. It is a type for which training is virtually non available. Doing wheel landings also greatly reduces loads imposed on the tail wheel assembly, which can be damaging on the Teal. Touch that little wheel at 65 MPH in a three point, possibly with a bounce, and associated loading, or hold it off to less than 40 MPH, and ease it on. It's an easy choice, if you're paying of the maintenance!
When I was trained in the turbine DC-3 (by a pro), I was taught to never three point it. I was once about to allow it to do that, and it was an instant go around. But, I do concede that a DC-3 is outside the normal realm of GA taildraggers. When I used to fly the Tiger Moth, I was taught to avoid three points landings, simply 'cause it had a wooden skid, rather than a tailwheel - no point dragging it down the runway for no good reason. The SM1019 I flew for a while, on the other hand, seemed difficult to wheel land, and with that big prop, I was reluctant to try.
For these reasons, training, which is type appropriate, is a good idea....
My Thruston Teal taildragger must be wheel landed to get the most consistent good landings. I learned this by happenstance, after many frustrating attempts to three point it. It is a type for which training is virtually non available. Doing wheel landings also greatly reduces loads imposed on the tail wheel assembly, which can be damaging on the Teal. Touch that little wheel at 65 MPH in a three point, possibly with a bounce, and associated loading, or hold it off to less than 40 MPH, and ease it on. It's an easy choice, if you're paying of the maintenance!
When I was trained in the turbine DC-3 (by a pro), I was taught to never three point it. I was once about to allow it to do that, and it was an instant go around. But, I do concede that a DC-3 is outside the normal realm of GA taildraggers. When I used to fly the Tiger Moth, I was taught to avoid three points landings, simply 'cause it had a wooden skid, rather than a tailwheel - no point dragging it down the runway for no good reason. The SM1019 I flew for a while, on the other hand, seemed difficult to wheel land, and with that big prop, I was reluctant to try.
For these reasons, training, which is type appropriate, is a good idea....
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You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how. There's nothing special about it, just a slightly different technique for t/o and landing.
As for farmstrips, again, if you learn PROPERLY, you will learn a lot more about possible hazards - many farm strips have much more involved than just being short!
Last edited by foxmoth; 22nd Jun 2013 at 16:19.
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Pilot DAR - agreed
one thing that must be borne in mind is that many tailwheel setups are actually diabolical crap. over geared but masked by sloppy springs. some are so bad that they set the techniques needed.
two further things for our novice.
if you stuff up the landing with a bounce, immediately pour the coals on and go around. dont hesitate. 50 feet in the air with speed rapidly washing off after a bounce simply cannot be recovered by full power in many aircraft. you will do the most horrifying crash to the ground in my aircraft. best never to experience it.
dont chop the power off suddenly during the flare. bleed it off gently. it greatly aids a greaser.
if you find that you simply can't land without bouncing try landing on one main wheel. on touchdown some energy will be absorbed in pushing the wings level and this helps to avoid a bounce.
daisy snickers and greasers are the things that absolutely make your day.
pssst. dont tell everyone how much fun it is or they'll all want it.
one thing that must be borne in mind is that many tailwheel setups are actually diabolical crap. over geared but masked by sloppy springs. some are so bad that they set the techniques needed.
two further things for our novice.
if you stuff up the landing with a bounce, immediately pour the coals on and go around. dont hesitate. 50 feet in the air with speed rapidly washing off after a bounce simply cannot be recovered by full power in many aircraft. you will do the most horrifying crash to the ground in my aircraft. best never to experience it.
dont chop the power off suddenly during the flare. bleed it off gently. it greatly aids a greaser.
if you find that you simply can't land without bouncing try landing on one main wheel. on touchdown some energy will be absorbed in pushing the wings level and this helps to avoid a bounce.
daisy snickers and greasers are the things that absolutely make your day.
pssst. dont tell everyone how much fun it is or they'll all want it.
Moderator
many farm strips have much more involved than just being short!
Sorry for hijacking your thread Dougal, but we need to get the whole story out there to everyone...
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"50 feet in the air with speed rapidly washing off AFTER A BOUNCE"
Even I haven't achieved that height after one of my legendary bounces!
Regards,
Jez
P.S. Sorry for the Capitals......I don't know how to make script bold.
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50 ft in the air
whanged it on and did a stupendous bounce ...then froze.
"come on fly the aeroplane"
just froze
"fly the f*****g aeroplane!"
still froze.
"my aeroplane"
full power and try to fly it out. nothing doing. saved in the horrendous crash by Wittman's rear facing spring legs. the prop tips must have come so close.
in the wubbleyew ate the minimum drag speed is computed to be 80 knots.
so a landing around 45 knots is MILES and MILES on the back side of the power curve.
bounce and sit there paralysed and wash the speed off even more and the parasitic drag from the air swirling off the wingtips is so great that you can feel the deceleration.
result is that I will never try to bring people up to speed in my aircraft ever again.
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Ditto on what DAR said,
Getting proper training is a must, don't faff around trying to teach yourself, that's is a recipe for an expensive mistake.
Suggested reading:
The Compleat Taildragger Pilot. By Harvey S. Plourde
Some of this guys books/vids are quite good also
Tailwheel Training :: Rich Stowell's Aviation Learning Center
Edit: If you do get Harveys book pay particular attention to what he calls the "Jounce"
Also Conventional Gear/ Flying a Taildragger by David Robson is worth a read
Getting proper training is a must, don't faff around trying to teach yourself, that's is a recipe for an expensive mistake.
Suggested reading:
The Compleat Taildragger Pilot. By Harvey S. Plourde
Some of this guys books/vids are quite good also
Tailwheel Training :: Rich Stowell's Aviation Learning Center
Edit: If you do get Harveys book pay particular attention to what he calls the "Jounce"
Also Conventional Gear/ Flying a Taildragger by David Robson is worth a read
Last edited by piperboy84; 22nd Jun 2013 at 17:17.
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result is that I will never try to bring people up to speed in my aircraft ever again.
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I suspect most experienced instructors would have stepped in before the swear words started!
I am not an instructor, just a pilot. But, I know some things about flying and landing. There have been several occasions when I have simply been a right seat pax, thinking the guy on the left knew what he was doing ('cause he owned this fancy plane). That assumption has nearly got me killed a few times, when things started going wrong, and left it way too late before I stepped in.
Instead of my early on saying "...have you noticed... could happen shortly", I was trying to be polite and quiet. But, no, he had not noticed. Then it gets too far down the wrong road.... Um, either this guy is going to have to be really good to get us out of this, or I'm about to have to do it myself.... Oh geeze....!!
I always got it back, but sometimes it was not pretty, nor polite. A sudden, completely unbriefed "!!I have control!!" Happily, no one ever objected, as they saw the need too, but it certainly could have introduced a personal conflict, and fairly so.
So, personally, I need more training as to how and when to jump in - so the candidate pilot gets the most of the learning experience, but everything stays safe. In two pilot test flying, we brief the flight, and that works well. But nearly always, I'm flying with a real pro, so these things are not issues. If the pilot is not a pro, that becomes evident in the briefing, so problems are resolved before the flight begins.
But checking out another pilot of mystery skills and recency can be hazardous. There is a balance between respecting their skills (whatever they are, once you figure it), pointing out where they are lacking, and, accepting where they show you that you are lacking!
Tailwheel training is on the scarier side of this sort of training, as things begin to happen very quickly, with little time or space to correct.
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Agaricus bisporus
You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how
You hardly need a "course" for a taildragger, just a bit of practice with an instructor, or just someone who knows how
Last edited by Another_CFI; 22nd Jun 2013 at 20:50.
You'll be doing more than just tailwheel differences training if you go from a Pa38/28-C152/172 to a Decathlon or a Pitts. As your allocating 5 days, consider the instructor and aircraft type before the location. If buying/joining a group you might just get an instructor and use the aircraft you'll be flying..
And check if you've to pay for each landing - it could add a lot to the cost.
And check if you've to pay for each landing - it could add a lot to the cost.
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And check if you've to pay for each landing - it could add a lot to the cost.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 23rd Jun 2013 at 08:45.
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Warning!
Hi Fr. Dougal,
Be warned. There is a good deal of poor tail-wheel instruction around being given by properly licenced instructors at legitimate flying clubs/schools.
I have heard of one establishment here in England where they don't even teach cross-wind landings at all!
When you visit training establishments, as a test I suggest you ask them direct, "do you teach wheeler landings"? If the answer is 'no' or 'not usually but we could' or 'we teach the two point landing which is just as good' (it isn't) then walk away.
Some will only teach the two point, one wing down, method. OK for high wing light aircraft in a light to moderate cross wind, but for a full blown, close to limit cross-wind or when landing in a low wing monoplane or biplane you definitely need the wheeler.
Good luck!
BP.
Be warned. There is a good deal of poor tail-wheel instruction around being given by properly licenced instructors at legitimate flying clubs/schools.
I have heard of one establishment here in England where they don't even teach cross-wind landings at all!
When you visit training establishments, as a test I suggest you ask them direct, "do you teach wheeler landings"? If the answer is 'no' or 'not usually but we could' or 'we teach the two point landing which is just as good' (it isn't) then walk away.
Some will only teach the two point, one wing down, method. OK for high wing light aircraft in a light to moderate cross wind, but for a full blown, close to limit cross-wind or when landing in a low wing monoplane or biplane you definitely need the wheeler.
Good luck!
BP.
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Some will only teach the two point, one wing down, method. OK for high wing light aircraft in a light to moderate cross wind, but for a full blown, close to limit cross-wind or when landing in a low wing monoplane or biplane you definitely need the wheeler.
Fr Dougal you can see lots of variation in advice here.
go do it for real. the decathlon would be a good aircraft to do it in.
An Auster in reasonable nick would be ok as well.
the Pitts is not suitable as a training aircraft for tailwheel endorsements.
too much vision impairment for safe training.
your mileage may vary
mine has been pretty consistent over the past 400 hours though.
tootle pip.