Logging Hours
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Logging Hours
On Friday I did a quick flight before it got dark.
HOBBS showed 0.6, the Tach showed 0.4 and the wheels off/wheels on was 16 minutes - I am in the habit of logging HOBBS hours (mine is activated by oil pressure), there have been small differences between this and time in the air but not significant - this is the first time that I've had such a difference snd it got me thinking; what should I be relying on for my recording.
I fly a US registered airplane on an FAA PPL - I do not intend to seek any other licences/rating where there are minimum time requirement, so never thought much about it - but my insurance is due for renewal and there are bands of hours (more hours flown lower premium) I have just moved up a band based on my log book, but if I was to have logged WO/WO I would have fewer hours - bothers me that in the case of a claim that a sharp loss adjuster could deny that claim.
So is there a generally accepted norm? My understanding is that I log when I am "manipulating the controls" as part of a flight - start and taxi being part of that activity - so I wouldn't log just moving the airplane or taxying to the pumps to refuel.
HOBBS showed 0.6, the Tach showed 0.4 and the wheels off/wheels on was 16 minutes - I am in the habit of logging HOBBS hours (mine is activated by oil pressure), there have been small differences between this and time in the air but not significant - this is the first time that I've had such a difference snd it got me thinking; what should I be relying on for my recording.
I fly a US registered airplane on an FAA PPL - I do not intend to seek any other licences/rating where there are minimum time requirement, so never thought much about it - but my insurance is due for renewal and there are bands of hours (more hours flown lower premium) I have just moved up a band based on my log book, but if I was to have logged WO/WO I would have fewer hours - bothers me that in the case of a claim that a sharp loss adjuster could deny that claim.
So is there a generally accepted norm? My understanding is that I log when I am "manipulating the controls" as part of a flight - start and taxi being part of that activity - so I wouldn't log just moving the airplane or taxying to the pumps to refuel.
Last edited by Ebbie 2003; 2nd Jun 2013 at 16:31.
I can't think of any occasion when a Hobbs meter is correct for a pilot's logbook.
FAA (FAR Part 1 Sec. 1.1 effective as of 10/12/2012) is pretty clear that:-
So it's neither "oil pressure time" (which would be over-logging) nor take-off to landing (which would be under-logging). It's what is often called "blocks time".
We use basically the same definition here in Britain, and I'm continuously astounded at the number of intelligent adults, capable of passing a pilots licence, who nonetheless are apparently incapable of writing down and logging what time the aeroplane starts moving, and what time it stops.
And of-course this is not a "generally accepted norm" it's a rule. It happens in this case that UK and US have the same rule - at-least for civil aviation and for single pilot operations.
A tacho, which is generally calibrated to max RPM, will usually underread compared to a Hobbs or to blocks time. 0.4/0.6 isn't that unusual a difference - if you're normally getting them very similar, then presumably you do very short taxiing, little or no time stationary with the engine running before and after a flight, and generally fly close to max RPM ? (Or, I suppose, the tacho is calibrated to less than max RPM.)
FAA (FAR Part 1 Sec. 1.1 effective as of 10/12/2012) is pretty clear that:-
Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
We use basically the same definition here in Britain, and I'm continuously astounded at the number of intelligent adults, capable of passing a pilots licence, who nonetheless are apparently incapable of writing down and logging what time the aeroplane starts moving, and what time it stops.
And of-course this is not a "generally accepted norm" it's a rule. It happens in this case that UK and US have the same rule - at-least for civil aviation and for single pilot operations.
A tacho, which is generally calibrated to max RPM, will usually underread compared to a Hobbs or to blocks time. 0.4/0.6 isn't that unusual a difference - if you're normally getting them very similar, then presumably you do very short taxiing, little or no time stationary with the engine running before and after a flight, and generally fly close to max RPM ? (Or, I suppose, the tacho is calibrated to less than max RPM.)
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 2nd Jun 2013 at 17:34.
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We've had this discussion many times before, but I log the time from the engines are turning to the times the engines are shut down/Hobbs. That's all PIC time in my book. It's not like there are no qualified skills that you have to train for not involved in the startup (awkward sentence), nor would my pilot's licence be any less on the line legally if something should happen when the engines are turning but aircraft not moving, nor would I be able to conduct flight at all without them turning - they are an intrinsic part of flight and a requirement. So to me that's all loggable time. I will only refrain from logging that time if flight does not take place, or if I'm turning engines unusually long before I move under own power.
I know a lot of people disagree with this way of logging, but I think it's the correct way to log.
I know a lot of people disagree with this way of logging, but I think it's the correct way to log.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 2nd Jun 2013 at 18:14.
Although both the CAA and FAA (and presumably, if they ever bother to think about such things, EASA) disagree with you Adam.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 2nd Jun 2013 at 18:07.
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Depends on the definition of moving, GTE. I could argue that once the engines are turning, the aircraft does not stay in the exact microscopic place - the vibrations make it move..
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 2nd Jun 2013 at 18:17.
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It has seldom been put more succinclty, thanks Genghis. I too am astounded that such a question even needs to be asked. It's a bit of a worry...
I'm continuously astounded at the number of intelligent adults, capable of passing a pilots licence, who nonetheless are apparently incapable of writing down and logging what time the aeroplane starts moving, and what time it stops.
As far as I know there is no requirement under FAA rules to log time, although in the event of an incident you may need to prove compliance with whatever currency and BFR requirements apply. Flying culture in relation to logging time is geared towards young professional pilots hoping to built time, and hoping to document every single minute flying. For an experienced pilot hopping into his puddle jumper its actually not necessary, despite the UK/Euro compulsion in this regard.
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I'm continuously astounded at the number of intelligent adults, capable of passing a pilots licence, who nonetheless are apparently incapable of writing down and logging what time the aeroplane starts moving, and what time it stops
As far as I know there is no requirement under FAA rules to log time, although in the event of an incident you may need to prove compliance with whatever currency and BFR requirements apply. Flying culture in relation to logging time is geared towards young professional pilots hoping to built time, and hoping to document every single minute flying. For an experienced pilot hopping into his puddle jumper its actually not necessary, despite the UK/Euro compulsion in this regard.
Neither community require actual times to be logged (although most people elect to), just the duration.
I've been instructed by several FAA flight instructors that its necessary to log time sufficient to prove compliance with currency and other regs, but is not legally required to log all time. I have never been instructed to the contrary. If the instruction was incorrect, it'd be useful to see a reference.
As I've mentioned in other similar threads, I know any number of pilots who basically stopped logging time when they retired from airline careers and the like. They log now and again to comply with the regs, viewing as a pain in the rear for just piddle dinking around for fun, but do not log every flight as a general practice.
As I've mentioned in other similar threads, I know any number of pilots who basically stopped logging time when they retired from airline careers and the like. They log now and again to comply with the regs, viewing as a pain in the rear for just piddle dinking around for fun, but do not log every flight as a general practice.
I'm sure you're right that people do that, but that would be in contravension of both FAA and UK-CAA regulations.
Specifically 14CFR61.51(b)...
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...2-sec61-51.pdf
It goes on to say that you can use it for proving minimum legal currency, but I can't see anything that says you may not.
Specifically 14CFR61.51(b)...
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-201...2-sec61-51.pdf
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a)
Training time and aeronautical ex-
perience.
Each person must document
and record the following time in a
manner acceptable to the Adminis-
trator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experi-
ence used to meet the requirements for
a certificate, rating, or flight review of
this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience re-
quired for meeting the recent flight ex-
perience requirements of this part.
(b)
Logbook entries.
For the purposes
of meeting the requirements of para-
graph (a) of this section, each person
must enter the following information
for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft de-
parted and arrived, or for lessons in a
flight simulator or flight training de-
vice, the location where the lesson oc-
curred.
(iv) Type and identification of air-
craft, flight simulator, flight training
device, or aviation training device, as
appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if re-
quired by § 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or train-
ing—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training re-
ceived from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight sim-
ulator, flight training device, or avia-
tion training device from an authorized
instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions
in flight, a flight simulator, flight
training device, or aviation training
device.
(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an
aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator,
or in a flight training device.
(a)
Training time and aeronautical ex-
perience.
Each person must document
and record the following time in a
manner acceptable to the Adminis-
trator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experi-
ence used to meet the requirements for
a certificate, rating, or flight review of
this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience re-
quired for meeting the recent flight ex-
perience requirements of this part.
(b)
Logbook entries.
For the purposes
of meeting the requirements of para-
graph (a) of this section, each person
must enter the following information
for each flight or lesson logged:
(1) General—
(i) Date.
(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft de-
parted and arrived, or for lessons in a
flight simulator or flight training de-
vice, the location where the lesson oc-
curred.
(iv) Type and identification of air-
craft, flight simulator, flight training
device, or aviation training device, as
appropriate.
(v) The name of a safety pilot, if re-
quired by § 91.109 of this chapter.
(2) Type of pilot experience or train-
ing—
(i) Solo.
(ii) Pilot in command.
(iii) Second in command.
(iv) Flight and ground training re-
ceived from an authorized instructor.
(v) Training received in a flight sim-
ulator, flight training device, or avia-
tion training device from an authorized
instructor.
(3) Conditions of flight—
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions
in flight, a flight simulator, flight
training device, or aviation training
device.
(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an
aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator,
or in a flight training device.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 3rd Jun 2013 at 14:07.
Yes, and Silvaire is, of course, correct. 61.51(a) requires each person to document and record "Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part." and "The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part." It does not require time that is not used for either of those purposes to be recorded at all.
61.51(b) then requires that if a flight is logged certain information must be recorded . However, it does not, as you seem to imply, require every flight or lesson to be logged
61.51(b) then requires that if a flight is logged certain information must be recorded . However, it does not, as you seem to imply, require every flight or lesson to be logged
Fascinating, as my old friend Spock used to say.
UK law certainly requires all flights to be logged - and personally I can't see any particular reason not to. But if FAA is happy that way - fair enough.
UK law certainly requires all flights to be logged - and personally I can't see any particular reason not to. But if FAA is happy that way - fair enough.
I can't see why somebody would NOT want to log all their hours. At least you have a full story and I certainly would expect anybody I hired from to be assured that I was current.
Assume that in FAA/CAA/JAR/EASA lands all the aeroplane hours have to be logged anyway for engine airframe and propellor log purposes. Surely if you have that discipline it's no more trouble to log the pilots hours as well.
Assume that in FAA/CAA/JAR/EASA lands all the aeroplane hours have to be logged anyway for engine airframe and propellor log purposes. Surely if you have that discipline it's no more trouble to log the pilots hours as well.
I can't see why somebody would NOT want to log all their hours. At least you have a full story and I certainly would expect anybody I hired from to be assured that I was current.
Assume that in FAA/CAA/JAR/EASA lands all the aeroplane hours have to be logged anyway for engine airframe and propellor log purposes. Surely if you have that discipline it's no more trouble to log the pilots hours as well.
Assume that in FAA/CAA/JAR/EASA lands all the aeroplane hours have to be logged anyway for engine airframe and propellor log purposes. Surely if you have that discipline it's no more trouble to log the pilots hours as well.
Assume that in FAA/CAA/JAR/EASA lands all the aeroplane hours have to be logged anyway for engine airframe and propellor log purposes. Surely if you have that discipline it's no more trouble to log the pilots hours as well.
Re not wanting to log hours: FAA pilots who have been flying for decades and have all he ratings they want have no great motivation to log time. One such pilot, a close friend of mine, flies one of his aircraft every day. He still has the aircraft he bought wrecked, repaired, and learned to fly in, in 1976. He has thousands of hours in it - it really doesn't matter if he logs the 30 minutes of touch of goes he performs while shuffling the aircraft from one hangar to another.
The only time a friend of mine notes his time is for the annual insurance renewal form. For total time he puts 25,000 + hours (as of 1998).
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Just to say - for those of us in Europe, with the joyful Part-FCL coming in, time is also required...
http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-mea...20Part-FCL.pdf
The logging time has been described slightly clumsily:
Does "first moves to taking off" include moving from parking to the runway? It has in the past...
http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-mea...20Part-FCL.pdf
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
GENERAL
(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following
information:
(1) personal details: name(s) and address of the pilot;
(2) for each flight:
(i) name(s) of PIC;
(ii) date of flight;
(iii) place and time of departure and arrival;
(iv) type, including make, model and variant, and registration
of the aircraft;
(v) indication if the aircraft is SE or ME, if applicable;
(vi) total time of flight;
(vii) accumulated total time of flight.
GENERAL
(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following
information:
(1) personal details: name(s) and address of the pilot;
(2) for each flight:
(i) name(s) of PIC;
(ii) date of flight;
(iii) place and time of departure and arrival;
(iv) type, including make, model and variant, and registration
of the aircraft;
(v) indication if the aircraft is SE or ME, if applicable;
(vi) total time of flight;
(vii) accumulated total time of flight.
Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft,
from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft,
from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
Last edited by riverrock83; 10th Jun 2013 at 14:57.
