Aircraft separation/confliction
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Aircraft separation/confliction
Hi all,
I am a recent EASA PPL holder with around 5 hours on my log book P1 since passing 2 months ago. I am more than confident in most aspects of flying with exception of 1 currently.. running into another aircraft or vice versa. I spend my time in the air looking out for traffic (standard) and listening to radio for other traffic. It has become a real fear that something could happen up there. Any advice from more experienced pilots and is this something that has worried others?
ZuluFox
I am a recent EASA PPL holder with around 5 hours on my log book P1 since passing 2 months ago. I am more than confident in most aspects of flying with exception of 1 currently.. running into another aircraft or vice versa. I spend my time in the air looking out for traffic (standard) and listening to radio for other traffic. It has become a real fear that something could happen up there. Any advice from more experienced pilots and is this something that has worried others?
ZuluFox
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As someone with over three and a half decades of aviation in professional roles and a bit more before that, the best advice I can give is:
Keep worried, keep looking, keep safe.
Keep worried, keep looking, keep safe.
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I heard a rumour that Skydemon is introducing visualisation of traffic (and giving advisories).You'll need some sort of extra device, which will pick up transponder data. Maybe this will give you an extra level of safety.
Hopefully the rumours are true.
I heard of several other collision avoidance systems (probably pricey).
Hopefully the rumours are true.
I heard of several other collision avoidance systems (probably pricey).
It will only operate between transponder equipped aircraft too, so a so called 'traffic advisory' might result in you turning into conflict with non transponder equipped aircraft (as does TCAS especially when they get a climb or descend RA).
Eyeballs that's the answer!
Eyeballs that's the answer!
Last edited by chevvron; 30th May 2013 at 12:02.
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I appreciate your negative view expressed about gliders in another thread but maybe a couple of glider flights at your local club where you will get used to having a number [of] aircraft in close proximity but not following a pattern and no radio calls will help you relax a little more about your ability to cope. Agree with Shy Torque’s “Keep worried, keep looking, keep safe”.
Last edited by powerless; 30th May 2013 at 17:46.
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I started flying 40 years ago, yes, much of my flying has been in protected airspace, but I also am still current flying light aircraft and have kept it that way right through and have many hours flying GA, many of those years before the days of Collision avoidance systems, in all that time I have rarely (unintentionally) come close to another aircraft and rarely even had to change direction to avoid, that is not to say don't keep a good lookout, but it IS a big sky and you should not get excessively worried about this. DO take sensible measures, keep a good look out, avoid high congestion areas where possible and fly heights that others regularly fly (e.g. 2,000/2,500/3,000), but don't obsess over it!
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ZuluFoxtrot
Just keep your eyes open! I presume you drive a car!
Do you go around worrying about hitting another car?
You have way more cars to hit driving your car than aircraft to hit flying an aircraft!
The difference is that if you do hit another aircraft chances are that you are dead while in a car you will probably survive in one form or another
Even if a bit Ga Ga!!
So think???? you have a fraction of the chances of hitting an aircraft as you do hitting a car while driving a car.
If you hit an aircraft be positive on your high velocity trip into the fields with the thought that you will no longer have to worry about paying the mortgage or the other million things we worry about in our daily lives so not all bad
Keep a good lookout and do not worry
you could always buy a Cirrus if your that worried ???
Pace
Just keep your eyes open! I presume you drive a car!
Do you go around worrying about hitting another car?
You have way more cars to hit driving your car than aircraft to hit flying an aircraft!
The difference is that if you do hit another aircraft chances are that you are dead while in a car you will probably survive in one form or another
Even if a bit Ga Ga!!So think???? you have a fraction of the chances of hitting an aircraft as you do hitting a car while driving a car.
If you hit an aircraft be positive on your high velocity trip into the fields with the thought that you will no longer have to worry about paying the mortgage or the other million things we worry about in our daily lives so not all bad
Keep a good lookout and do not worry
you could always buy a Cirrus if your that worried ???Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th May 2013 at 19:32.
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Going through a stage a being absolutely terrified about collisions seems to be inevitable at some time. And I agree, keeping a healthy fear will keep you on your toes.
Around airfields is the place to really watch out. An all too common experience is spotting another aircraft and realizing that the pilot is not at all aware of your presence.
You develop an awareness of movement in your periphery vision. The one you are least likely to see is the one coming straight towards you, but again that's the one which is most likely to miss you - what are the changes of being in the exact opposite heading at precisely the same height? I have never heard of this happening in any accident.
A less obvious danger is aircraft climbing up to you from underneath. Not easy to see at all.
Does anyone really do that eye-scanning segment thing the CAA recommends?
Around airfields is the place to really watch out. An all too common experience is spotting another aircraft and realizing that the pilot is not at all aware of your presence.
You develop an awareness of movement in your periphery vision. The one you are least likely to see is the one coming straight towards you, but again that's the one which is most likely to miss you - what are the changes of being in the exact opposite heading at precisely the same height? I have never heard of this happening in any accident.
A less obvious danger is aircraft climbing up to you from underneath. Not easy to see at all.
Does anyone really do that eye-scanning segment thing the CAA recommends?
The one you are least likely to see is the one coming straight towards you, but again that's the one which is most likely to miss you - what are the changes of being in the exact opposite heading at precisely the same height? I have never heard of this happening in any accident.
It's not just opposite heading - it's a constant relative bearing that leads to a collision and because the target is not moving left or right, it is more difficult to detect.
Having said that, the "big sky" theory helps a lot as does flying at non-standard altitudes and avoiding choke-points like VORs and VFR routes near the edges of CAS.
Studies have shown that pilots don't (can't) detect most traffic visually:
Air Accidents Investigation: 5/2010 G-BYXR and G-CKHT[/url]
http://humansystems.arc.nasa.gov/fli...vin_ISAP05.pdf
www.atsb.gov.au/media/32918/limit_see_avoid.pdf
etc...
An exception is in the circuit, or other situations where you know where the conflicting traffic is most likely to be. For example flying down the Luton/Stanstead corridor I would concentrate my search down the corridor rather than to the sides, because you're more likely to have VFR traffic flying along the corridor rather than flying into you from controlled airspace.
The real answer though, is that mid-air collisions en-route are very rare, and on the principle that we should focus our attention on those things that we can change and that are significant, there are better things to worry about. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't look out of the window.
Air Accidents Investigation: 5/2010 G-BYXR and G-CKHT[/url]
http://humansystems.arc.nasa.gov/fli...vin_ISAP05.pdf
www.atsb.gov.au/media/32918/limit_see_avoid.pdf
etc...
An exception is in the circuit, or other situations where you know where the conflicting traffic is most likely to be. For example flying down the Luton/Stanstead corridor I would concentrate my search down the corridor rather than to the sides, because you're more likely to have VFR traffic flying along the corridor rather than flying into you from controlled airspace.
The real answer though, is that mid-air collisions en-route are very rare, and on the principle that we should focus our attention on those things that we can change and that are significant, there are better things to worry about. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't look out of the window.
Last edited by abgd; 31st May 2013 at 05:48.
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Hi, the most obvious high traffic area is in the circuit, and joining or leaving the circuit. Try to get a good mental image of where everyone is by listening to the radio... Watch out for the double calls about simultaneous position reports... If someone calls 'G-aaaa on Final' just as you are about to give the same call, you can be pretty sure he is either above or below you. Best to give your position and height and your avoiding intentions.
If you fly the circuit at correct circuit height +- 30ft, then other planes will be silhouetted against the horizon. If they are 100ft lower they will be much more difficult to see against the ground.
Also be aware that we don't all fly the same circuit, nose to tail, like follow my leader. This makes the downwind leg a series of parallel tracks by all the different aircraft. Some will be just 300 yards from the runway, others will be over a mile away, depending upon aircraft type and pilot choice. If you fly downwind at 1000 yards out, expect other planes to be both to the left and to the right of you.
On a really busy day I have seen 5 in the circuit with 2 more waiting at the runway hold. It turned into a long wait, as a further plane joined downwind from a cross-country flight.
If you fly the circuit at correct circuit height +- 30ft, then other planes will be silhouetted against the horizon. If they are 100ft lower they will be much more difficult to see against the ground.
Also be aware that we don't all fly the same circuit, nose to tail, like follow my leader. This makes the downwind leg a series of parallel tracks by all the different aircraft. Some will be just 300 yards from the runway, others will be over a mile away, depending upon aircraft type and pilot choice. If you fly downwind at 1000 yards out, expect other planes to be both to the left and to the right of you.
On a really busy day I have seen 5 in the circuit with 2 more waiting at the runway hold. It turned into a long wait, as a further plane joined downwind from a cross-country flight.
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I think it's healthy to be concerned about collisions. Just as it's healthy to be concerned about carb icing etc - you'll be looking for the symptoms / other aircraft. My greatest concern is a high wing a/c climbing into me (low wing), or my low wing descending into a high wing. So you just have to be proactive with your lookout - really rock the wings to see if there's anything below (or above for a high wing).
When flying with passengers I always brief them on keeping a good lookout - it gives them something to do and it gives the a/c some more eyes. Most of the time in the circuit they spot traffic before I do.
When flying with passengers I always brief them on keeping a good lookout - it gives them something to do and it gives the a/c some more eyes. Most of the time in the circuit they spot traffic before I do.
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As with all alspects of life, Be Aware. Whether watching out for rogue buses whilst walking in the street, or flying your aircraft at 5k. Situational awareness, of all aspects of the flight is what it is all about.
I flew over to Ireland yesterday, and had three see and avoid. On the morning flight to Ireland, crossing Arran, and speaking with Scottish, a light aircraft across my bow. I saw him, he did not see me. About 2 miles in front, same level. Then a Loganair Twin Otter, same level, I knew he was coming, but saw him late, passed my RHS, about 100 feet below me. He saw me, before I saw him.
Late afternoon, another Twin Otter out of Campbeltown, passing through my level, me at 4400, he going to 5, both GOW inbound. I saw him take off as I passed overhead, again talking to both Cambeltown and Scottish, everyone keeping everyone else alert and aware. Now, that, FOR ME WAS A VERY BUSY DAY, where three sets of traffic, could, if I was not aware, and talking, could have ruined my day. That was CAVOK.
I know lots of people do not want to talk on the radio, and prefer to go flying in silence, and they are free to do that. But, I would always advocate to listen in to the pertinent frequency, and at least be aware of what is happening around you, even if you do not want to communicate with them.
I flew over to Ireland yesterday, and had three see and avoid. On the morning flight to Ireland, crossing Arran, and speaking with Scottish, a light aircraft across my bow. I saw him, he did not see me. About 2 miles in front, same level. Then a Loganair Twin Otter, same level, I knew he was coming, but saw him late, passed my RHS, about 100 feet below me. He saw me, before I saw him.
Late afternoon, another Twin Otter out of Campbeltown, passing through my level, me at 4400, he going to 5, both GOW inbound. I saw him take off as I passed overhead, again talking to both Cambeltown and Scottish, everyone keeping everyone else alert and aware. Now, that, FOR ME WAS A VERY BUSY DAY, where three sets of traffic, could, if I was not aware, and talking, could have ruined my day. That was CAVOK.
I know lots of people do not want to talk on the radio, and prefer to go flying in silence, and they are free to do that. But, I would always advocate to listen in to the pertinent frequency, and at least be aware of what is happening around you, even if you do not want to communicate with them.
Last edited by maxred; 31st May 2013 at 10:14.
But, I would always advocate to listen in to the pertinent frequency, and at least be aware of what is happening around you, even if you do not want to communicate with them.
2 s
ZF, is there an ATC unit nearby which provides a LARS? Request a Traffic Service and you should be provided with surveillance derived info on relevant traffic in your vicinity - hopefully even those without transponders. It'll all add to your situational awareness and provide that extra level of information on top of your lookout.
Last edited by Il Duce; 31st May 2013 at 18:02.
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Also, if you fly an aircraft with a Mode C /ALT facility on its transponder, always use it (rather than just selecting plain Mode A), which helps pilots of TCAS equipped aircraft to avoid you.
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Just in and just happened. Warning some graphic scenes.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/n...rash-abrk.html
I believe the airspace is quite busy.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/n...rash-abrk.html
I believe the airspace is quite busy.
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Fly as high as you can, most light aircraft seem to fly below 3000ft. Get a radar traffic service so it's not just your eyes keeping a look out. Learn a systematic scan. Don't worry about it that's a waste of effort and can distract you from doing the aforementioned practical things