Aircraft separation/confliction
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,901
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From: On the wireless...
Let's take a look at the caveats in CAP774 - 'UK Flight Information Services'
Chapter 1 - Service Principles
Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance
Chapter 2 - Basic Service
The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilots responsibility.
Chapter 3 - Traffic Service
the avoidance of other traffic is ultimately the pilots responsibility.
Often the very participation in these optional services creates additional, and often un-necessary, workload (RTF, plogs, referring to gizmos, calculations etc) which detracts from the lookout required.
They have got you by the short and curlys whatever happens.
The one which you hit will be the one you didn't see regardless of whether you have been warned or not.
Not everybody will be squawking or have FLARM etc, so it's down to Mark One Eyeball.
Chapter 1 - Service Principles
Within Class F and G airspace, regardless of the service being provided, pilots are ultimately responsible for collision avoidance
Chapter 2 - Basic Service
The avoidance of other traffic is solely the pilots responsibility.
Chapter 3 - Traffic Service
the avoidance of other traffic is ultimately the pilots responsibility.
Often the very participation in these optional services creates additional, and often un-necessary, workload (RTF, plogs, referring to gizmos, calculations etc) which detracts from the lookout required.
They have got you by the short and curlys whatever happens.
The one which you hit will be the one you didn't see regardless of whether you have been warned or not.
Not everybody will be squawking or have FLARM etc, so it's down to Mark One Eyeball.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,901
Likes: 1
From: On the wireless...
When sitting in the right-seat I am frequently dismayed, nay, even frustrated, to hear the driver call x (totally irrelevant) unit for y (inappropriate) service, then witness the subsequent degradation of lookout, cockpit workload management and listening out. I see over-reliance, and aircraft are often detected far too late because the limitations of ATSOCA are not understood. The distraction of the receipt of ATSOCA itself is often contributory to poor lookout.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Traffic and basic the in the Uk is no use to man nor beast for any form of seperation.
Your on your own.
Your on your own.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
From: UK
The fundamental point is that for all practical purposes except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation.
Traffic service can help with info, deconfliction just gets you vectored all over the sky avoiding traffic unknown to the controller.
Traffic service can help with info, deconfliction just gets you vectored all over the sky avoiding traffic unknown to the controller.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation
There are 2 ways of operating.
1. Presume everyone is out to get you and you are on your tod. When in VMC in what ever class of airspace head out the window watching for people trying to mug you.
2. Thinking you are safe just because you are talking to someone.
Both my airporox's have been in the UK under the highest level of service available in class G, Advisory and de-confliction. One of them we would have hit if we hadn't spotted it.
While it may be great to know where the traffic is if you focus on that sector and ignore the others your setting your self up for getting mugged from the opposite direction.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,901
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From: On the wireless...
Totally agree with mad jock, and that's speaking as an ATSOCA provider since '82. It's the devil's own job, damned if you do, damned if you don't. (CAS high level sectors are a comparative walk in the park...)
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 17
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From: N/A
Although i have relatively low hours all have been done at a busy aerodrome. One thing that I realized again today is situational awareness is great but always be prepared to change your mental picture, all too often people are not actually where they are reporting they are!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 939
Likes: 1
From: UK
except under IFR in controlled airspace the pilot is responsible for separation
Nope even then you have the responsibility to see and avoid.
Nope even then you have the responsibility to see and avoid.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
That's a good trick under IFR in IMC in controlled airspace without TCAS.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
So IMC is the safest place to be in both controlled and uncontrolled airspace.
TCAS is a useful tool but it doesn't half make you realise how many aircraft come close - the ones you otherwise would have not known about. The longer I'm in this game the more I realise the big sky theory is a flawed concept.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
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From: In the boot of my car!
I wonder how many midairs are caused by autopilots?
Once the auto is on many pilots are heads down examining charts, making calculations or doing the Sunday times crossword puzzles
No auto and maybe they would look out more !
Once the auto is on many pilots are heads down examining charts, making calculations or doing the Sunday times crossword puzzles
No auto and maybe they would look out more !
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Nah they don't they have there heads in looking at the dials completely ignoring the best horizon that god can give you.
I lost count the number of times I have said "we are VMC in class G look out the
ing window"
The rubbish that comes back like we are IFR so have to use the instruments and the like.
I lost count the number of times I have said "we are VMC in class G look out the
ing window" The rubbish that comes back like we are IFR so have to use the instruments and the like.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Nae bother,
Your fear is sort of justified and is healthy if it makes you have a good look out, but not a reason to not go flying.
Just be aware that a good look out is your best defence but if some one is willing to give you a service, yes this is a good thing. Mainly to be able to issue a mayday if you so required but if you presume your going to get no help off them it won't come as a surprise when you don't, and of course if they do help you out its a bonus.
Your fear is sort of justified and is healthy if it makes you have a good look out, but not a reason to not go flying.
Just be aware that a good look out is your best defence but if some one is willing to give you a service, yes this is a good thing. Mainly to be able to issue a mayday if you so required but if you presume your going to get no help off them it won't come as a surprise when you don't, and of course if they do help you out its a bonus.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
I wonder how many midairs are caused by autopilots?
The UK ones are mostly GA GA in or near the pattern, doing aerobatics, or low level maneuvering GA vs fast jet. I doubt any were on autopilot other than maybe G-EYES (the Practice ILS calibrator at Coventry).
Midairs are most likely on a gin clear day at relatively low level with people flying by looking out the window (which is not in any way to see not looking is safer!). But they also are thankfully rair.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 3rd June 2013 at 10:13.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,198
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From: South Norfolk, England
I had a fright yesterday and it was a seriously close one!
Two of us in a Robin 200 (myself and a VERY experienced instructor) near Clacton. We were in the process of doing a clearing turn prior to some stalls when a Cessna passed directly below at I would estimate no more than 50' !!! Frightened the Cr@p out of me! Especially as neither of us saw it until it passed underneath and would have had no time to react. Worse still, we were both looking extra hard for other aircraft as part of the training checks!
I had one near miss years ago and now this one. Both in areas where flying schools tend to do excersises ... Must be a cautionary note in that surely?
SS
Two of us in a Robin 200 (myself and a VERY experienced instructor) near Clacton. We were in the process of doing a clearing turn prior to some stalls when a Cessna passed directly below at I would estimate no more than 50' !!! Frightened the Cr@p out of me! Especially as neither of us saw it until it passed underneath and would have had no time to react. Worse still, we were both looking extra hard for other aircraft as part of the training checks!
I had one near miss years ago and now this one. Both in areas where flying schools tend to do excersises ... Must be a cautionary note in that surely?
SS