Tips for nailing a landing?
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Tips for nailing a landing?
Hey guys,
I'm currently working through circuits for my PPL in a PA-38 and I am really struggling with the touchdown/flare, and was wondering whether anyone had any tips?
I can fly it almost perfectly to around 50ft off the ground but then for some reason I cannot for the life of me get a smooth landing without ballooning or hitting down on the nose wheel.
In an average lesson, I can get just about get 2 out of 5 landings good, but can't always visualise when to reduce power or pitch up slightly. I know there is no fool proof way as every landing is different, but as anyone got any tips to visualise when to put the nose up slightly to touchdown?
The soul destroying part is that I was doing circuits last August, but with my 2 instructors leaving (who had taught me from day one), planes uncircuitable and british weather has meant that I have had inconsistent flying (literally around 4 flights between Oct and March) despite regular booking!
Prior to my instructors leaving, I was nearly there, and with a few more hours would have nailed it, but with inconsistency its 2 steps forward, 3 steps back! My instructor assures me its only normal, but wondering if I will ever get there! (and I think my instructor is starting to despair with me too!).
I am hoping to get some good hours now that "summer" is around the corner, so just need a plan of action!
Thanks
I'm currently working through circuits for my PPL in a PA-38 and I am really struggling with the touchdown/flare, and was wondering whether anyone had any tips?
I can fly it almost perfectly to around 50ft off the ground but then for some reason I cannot for the life of me get a smooth landing without ballooning or hitting down on the nose wheel.
In an average lesson, I can get just about get 2 out of 5 landings good, but can't always visualise when to reduce power or pitch up slightly. I know there is no fool proof way as every landing is different, but as anyone got any tips to visualise when to put the nose up slightly to touchdown?
The soul destroying part is that I was doing circuits last August, but with my 2 instructors leaving (who had taught me from day one), planes uncircuitable and british weather has meant that I have had inconsistent flying (literally around 4 flights between Oct and March) despite regular booking!
Prior to my instructors leaving, I was nearly there, and with a few more hours would have nailed it, but with inconsistency its 2 steps forward, 3 steps back! My instructor assures me its only normal, but wondering if I will ever get there! (and I think my instructor is starting to despair with me too!).
I am hoping to get some good hours now that "summer" is around the corner, so just need a plan of action!
Thanks
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Speed
Personally, nail the approach speed as per the P.O.H. There are are loads of tips but I feel if you are at the correct speed at short finals the rest falls into place.
Good luck 'Rome wasn't built in a day'
Good luck 'Rome wasn't built in a day'
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How many hours do you have now? I'm guessing not too many and I think what you're seeing is the inconsistency that we all went through as very low time pilots. It sounds like you just need to fly more, and get some successes under your belt; the consistency will arrive as you start doing things right more often. Have a look at the next thread re full-stall landings etc. Correct approach speed is vital, as is having a "make it happen" attitude. Never let the aircraft touch down until it's in the right attitude (which your instructor can demonstrate on climb-out or at altitude, when there are fewer things happening), properly aligned with the centre line etc. You're not there as a passenger so gently but firmly set yourself up - don't feel like it's all happening around you.
By the way, has your instructor tried the old trick of making you fly level above the runway without touching down? Of course, as a low-time pilot you won't manage to keep the aircraft off the runway, but you'll learn good touch-down attitudes. Worked for me
By the way, has your instructor tried the old trick of making you fly level above the runway without touching down? Of course, as a low-time pilot you won't manage to keep the aircraft off the runway, but you'll learn good touch-down attitudes. Worked for me
Last edited by tecman; 13th Apr 2013 at 17:39.
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Thanks for the tips!
@tecman - between Oct and March I had lessons booked every week. So I suppose yeah, I am "low time". There was a period of 3 weeks of no circuit-able planes at the school, and most weeks consisted of an 16kt crosswind, low mist/fog or chucking it down with rain.
My lovely airfield has played the "we're shutting the runway to learning flights today' a few times too.
@tecman - between Oct and March I had lessons booked every week. So I suppose yeah, I am "low time". There was a period of 3 weeks of no circuit-able planes at the school, and most weeks consisted of an 16kt crosswind, low mist/fog or chucking it down with rain.
My lovely airfield has played the "we're shutting the runway to learning flights today' a few times too.
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"we're shutting the runway to learning flights today'
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From another thread (and there is some dissent in this regard), but for me: fly the approach with a trickle of power in. And find a fix at the end of the rwy, not too close.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 13th Apr 2013 at 18:11.
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look at the END the runway when rounding out not straight down at the ground, I am only 35 hours into my PPL and that was eye opening for me despite being told it from the beginning, I've only started doing it properly recently.
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"we're shutting the runway to learning flights today' Never heard of a field doing that before, that's a pretty BS deal!! why do they do that?
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The secret of landings is to round out at low height and correct approach speed look at the end of the runway and then try not to land. That means pulling the yoke back slowly and steadily and if you have it spot on you'll touch down with stall warning blaring and the yoke all the way back
Then practice lots
Then practice lots
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Shifting the sight point from the touchdown point that you've been staring at since turning base to towards the end of the runway is the critical learning point and that's because it allows accurate sink assessment via peripheral vision. It takes time to get to this point in understanding and in ability to fly the approach consistently to arrive at the flare point on speed and at the same attitude time and time again. Once that skill has been developed it can be refined and your capacity and mental picture will refine to take in the small changes in sink, speed and power that are needed to land well every time. There will be an odd clanger from time to time and some you won't be able to explain because the wind changed, the power didn't quite pick up the sink, the runway was narrower, a different colour even.
It is frustrating but experience and recognising the picture takes time. From then on, you'll know when the picture is different and whether you were expecting that difference and you'll develop techniques to address the differences. Thinking ahead and reacting steadily with measured inputs rather than stabs and yanks helps a lot; particularly close to the ground. That applies to both control and power inputs. Be completely in trim prior to starting the flare.
In a nutshell: aim for utter consistency in circuits and approaches right down to the flare to enable capacity to learn the finer points. You know already when it's not going quite right, so think about each time it has gone well and each time it hasn't gone so well and think each of them through. Get an instructor to demo a landing from time to time and get them to talk out loud what they're sensing and how they're correcting and where they're looking and what they're reacting to in respect of wind/sink/power/speed. Critique their flying (perhaps to yourself, although any experienced instructor should be honest enough to talk through the good and bad of their own performance to aid your learning).
10,000 hours and still learning: if that's any consolation. My first aeroplane was a Tomahawk and I don't view it particularly fondly now. The 152 was much easier to land.
It is frustrating but experience and recognising the picture takes time. From then on, you'll know when the picture is different and whether you were expecting that difference and you'll develop techniques to address the differences. Thinking ahead and reacting steadily with measured inputs rather than stabs and yanks helps a lot; particularly close to the ground. That applies to both control and power inputs. Be completely in trim prior to starting the flare.
In a nutshell: aim for utter consistency in circuits and approaches right down to the flare to enable capacity to learn the finer points. You know already when it's not going quite right, so think about each time it has gone well and each time it hasn't gone so well and think each of them through. Get an instructor to demo a landing from time to time and get them to talk out loud what they're sensing and how they're correcting and where they're looking and what they're reacting to in respect of wind/sink/power/speed. Critique their flying (perhaps to yourself, although any experienced instructor should be honest enough to talk through the good and bad of their own performance to aid your learning).
10,000 hours and still learning: if that's any consolation. My first aeroplane was a Tomahawk and I don't view it particularly fondly now. The 152 was much easier to land.
Last edited by shlittlenellie; 13th Apr 2013 at 19:24.
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Great post by Nellie there, lots of stuff to take in.
I haven't a clue how I land, I just do it now. It's a bit like driving, when you're learning it's all thinking 'overtake, mirror, indicate' or something like that, then when you've been driving for years you may drive a hundred miles without even remembering the journey. Same with flying and I'm always impressed when guys like Nellie with a squillion hours can articulate what the basics are.
Good luck and keep us updated.
I haven't a clue how I land, I just do it now. It's a bit like driving, when you're learning it's all thinking 'overtake, mirror, indicate' or something like that, then when you've been driving for years you may drive a hundred miles without even remembering the journey. Same with flying and I'm always impressed when guys like Nellie with a squillion hours can articulate what the basics are.
Good luck and keep us updated.
I am with Johnm on this one. It is all about trying not to land. But, try to not land from a very low height.
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I've not seen you flying, so I'm taking pot luck here, but I'm guessing that this....
Is the core of your problem.
During your early days, you MUST have regular flights and consistent instruction. Different instructors have different styles and methods of doing their job.... add into that gaps in your flying routine and you're just going to start loosing what you've worked hard to build up.
Landings are tricky to master but easy once you've "got it" .... but the inconsistency in your instruction isn't helping matters.
Either change school to somewhere a bit busier and less prone to changes, or if you like your place, or change is not an option talk to the school and perhaps get them to assign you someone more senior who's part of the furniture and therefore not likely to up sticks any time soon.
The soul destroying part is that I was doing circuits last August, but with my 2 instructors leaving (who had taught me from day one), planes uncircuitable and british weather has meant that I have had inconsistent flying (literally around 4 flights between Oct and March) despite regular booking!
During your early days, you MUST have regular flights and consistent instruction. Different instructors have different styles and methods of doing their job.... add into that gaps in your flying routine and you're just going to start loosing what you've worked hard to build up.
Landings are tricky to master but easy once you've "got it" .... but the inconsistency in your instruction isn't helping matters.
Either change school to somewhere a bit busier and less prone to changes, or if you like your place, or change is not an option talk to the school and perhaps get them to assign you someone more senior who's part of the furniture and therefore not likely to up sticks any time soon.
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"we're shutting the runway to learning flights today'
Never heard of a field doing that before, that's a pretty BS deal!! why do they do that?
Never heard of a field doing that before, that's a pretty BS deal!! why do they do that?
Seriously, Chicgeek, you'll get there, consistency though as I have found, is vital with FI, consistency of trips, FTO and aircraft. I am a Stude too and I do have a problem with the consistency of trips - the great British Wx not helping!
My landings, if its any consolation, are usually of dubious quality and I surprise both of us on the very odd occasion I pull off a greaser (unfortunately, never when solo, and not very often...theres always something i've messed up
) I won't tell you the way i'm taught, as it may be different to you and there are Instructors on here who are worth listning to on that. But i will jsut say that I've found that (not saying you aren't of course!) but from my point of view, patience, when landing an aircraft is a good thing... I speak from experience in landing without much in the early days 
Last edited by Grob Queen; 13th Apr 2013 at 21:07.
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Thanks for your comments guys!
Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!
The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!
Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!
As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming!
Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!
Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!
The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!
Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!
As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming!
Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!
For new pilots I have found the secret to good landings is a consistent approach pitch attitude. That is you have the attitude for the correct approach speed nailed during from 300 feet to the start of the flare and the power is not adjusted. By that I mean the nose is not bobbing up and down it stays steady. This gives you a consistent repeatable sight picture so that the "look" of correct time to start the flare doesn't change.
If you are coming low and flat on some approaches and high and steep on others the sight picture will be different on every landing and thus it will be much harder to judge the flare.
The proper approach speed is also very important. Flight schools tend to use excessive speeds on the approach and so the flare is prolonged giving the poor student more time to screw things up.
I also believe that you don't mess with power in the flare. When it is time to flare power comes smoothly to idle and the nose comes up to just above the level flight attitude, hold that until you feel the aircraft descending and then continue to pitch up to the landing attitude.
Finally the most important thing for the landing is that the aircraft touches down in the correct nose high attitude. If you are a little high and the aircraft drops the last foot with a bit of a thud, but in the correct nose high landing attitude, that is still a acceptable, safe landing. What is not acceptable is a flat landing where all three wheels touch at the same time or even worse a nose wheel first landing.
If you are coming low and flat on some approaches and high and steep on others the sight picture will be different on every landing and thus it will be much harder to judge the flare.
The proper approach speed is also very important. Flight schools tend to use excessive speeds on the approach and so the flare is prolonged giving the poor student more time to screw things up.
I also believe that you don't mess with power in the flare. When it is time to flare power comes smoothly to idle and the nose comes up to just above the level flight attitude, hold that until you feel the aircraft descending and then continue to pitch up to the landing attitude.
Finally the most important thing for the landing is that the aircraft touches down in the correct nose high attitude. If you are a little high and the aircraft drops the last foot with a bit of a thud, but in the correct nose high landing attitude, that is still a acceptable, safe landing. What is not acceptable is a flat landing where all three wheels touch at the same time or even worse a nose wheel first landing.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 13th Apr 2013 at 23:32.
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Thanks for your comments guys!
Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!
The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!
Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!
As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming!
Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!
Totally agree about the consistency. Unfortunately I think its been a whole chain of events. Sadly the school lost one of the instructors last august in a crash which as you can imagine was a factor in the other one departing the school! Together they were a great team, as one had taught the other one so everything was seamless and really consistant throughout! Definitely feel like I took it all for granted now!
The flying school itself has been supportive and reassembled a great team so I am confident about my instructor now, its just at times like this when you are so close, you start to doubt yourself. However, I sharn't let it defeat me at this late stage! I can get it in the air, I can fly it around, just need to get it back on the ground!
Having heard all of your comments I think I have been focusing too much on landing it with a perfect flare, instead of just trying to get it on the ground softy to start with! I know for a fact that I haven't been looking down the runway, which now seems completely obvious!
As for the airfield, Hawarden ATC has its wonderful quirks, even shutting down the apron outside the school's hangar the other week, they must just know I am coming!
Flying again Thursday, so wish me luck for a sunny day and an open runway!
BPF,
Excellent advice.
Excellent advice.