Which Flying School/Club??
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Which Flying School/Club??
Hi guys! 
Basically I am in a huge dilemma, I live in Berkshire UK and my chosen flying club is WLAC (West London Aero Club) situated in White Waltham (Maidenhead) Aircraft Rates - West London Aero Club
I want to start my PPL real soon and this is what they have to offer:-
45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction in an Piper Warrior PA28 – 161 AVGAS including all written exams and WLAC PPL Student workbook - £8126
or
45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction in a Piper Warrior PA28 – TAE125 Diesel including all written exams and WLAC PPL Student workbook - £7847
FIRST can someone please tell me what the difference is between those two options^^
Now I am waiting on my instructor to call me and hes really nice so far, i've had one lesson with him already like a 'starter package' out of 3 and he was the one who i preferred. He said he'll contact me early Jan 2013 to plan my flying schedule.
In the meantime I was looking at other flying clubs that seemed quite good by people comments etc.
There's a flying club in Wycombe (BA) Learn to Fly - Airways Flying Club
they're hourly rate is 199 for piper pa28 and i multiplied that by 45 and it came up with £8955.00 + you have to pay for examination fees, whereas at WLAC its all in one. However the upside with BAFC is apparently they have full atc and a hard runway which is meant to be really good by peoples reviews.
I dont know whether WLAC has full atc or not but i quite like it and its closer to me aswell.
Please tell me which one would be better, it would really be helpful
Also are there any other flying clubs you would know in berkshire or near berkshire that is better or cheaper? that anyone of you would know of...
Thank you very much!
Basically I am in a huge dilemma, I live in Berkshire UK and my chosen flying club is WLAC (West London Aero Club) situated in White Waltham (Maidenhead) Aircraft Rates - West London Aero Club
I want to start my PPL real soon and this is what they have to offer:-
45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction in an Piper Warrior PA28 – 161 AVGAS including all written exams and WLAC PPL Student workbook - £8126
or
45 hours JAR PPL dual instruction in a Piper Warrior PA28 – TAE125 Diesel including all written exams and WLAC PPL Student workbook - £7847
FIRST can someone please tell me what the difference is between those two options^^
Now I am waiting on my instructor to call me and hes really nice so far, i've had one lesson with him already like a 'starter package' out of 3 and he was the one who i preferred. He said he'll contact me early Jan 2013 to plan my flying schedule.
In the meantime I was looking at other flying clubs that seemed quite good by people comments etc.
There's a flying club in Wycombe (BA) Learn to Fly - Airways Flying Club
they're hourly rate is 199 for piper pa28 and i multiplied that by 45 and it came up with £8955.00 + you have to pay for examination fees, whereas at WLAC its all in one. However the upside with BAFC is apparently they have full atc and a hard runway which is meant to be really good by peoples reviews.
I dont know whether WLAC has full atc or not but i quite like it and its closer to me aswell.
Please tell me which one would be better, it would really be helpful
Also are there any other flying clubs you would know in berkshire or near berkshire that is better or cheaper? that anyone of you would know of...
Thank you very much!
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Avgas v Diesel
Hi Predzsingh15,
On the face of it, the difference amounts to the fact that the diesel burns Jet A-1 fuel (aviation kerosene) which will be somewhat cheaper than avgas and, having a more modern engine, is probably more fuel efficient anyway.
I think the questions that would occur to me are the following. First of all, how many diesel aircraft does the club possess by comparison to the number of avgas aircraft? You may find that they may have maybe six avgas burners but only one diesel aircraft. This means whenever the diesel is grounded for maintenance or repair, you are grounded also, while those who are flying avgas aircraft will have alternative aircraft available at all times.
The next question is, when you finally have your PPL, what kind of aircraft are you going to fly? There are as yet very few diesel aircraft in the private fleet, so if you have to convert to avgas you will almost certainly have to undergo 'differences training' in order to learn how to manage an avgas burning engine.
WLAC is a long established (if expensive) club with an excellent reputation. There are, however, other good options in the area you specify and I would particularly recommend one you may care to have a look at. This is The Pilot Centre at Denham. I have personal experience of this outfit and would recommend them unconditionally.
I would not be too bothered about looking for a club with full ATC and hard runways. Wherever you have hard runways and full ATC, you also have commercial traffic, which is invariably given priority over you for takeoffs. This can mean you end up sitting twiddling your thumbs stationary at the hold while you are burning about £3 a minute waiting for Chavair's B737 to land and clear the runway. Anyway, you can add airport experience later.
'Hope this helps.
Happy New Year!
BP.
On the face of it, the difference amounts to the fact that the diesel burns Jet A-1 fuel (aviation kerosene) which will be somewhat cheaper than avgas and, having a more modern engine, is probably more fuel efficient anyway.
I think the questions that would occur to me are the following. First of all, how many diesel aircraft does the club possess by comparison to the number of avgas aircraft? You may find that they may have maybe six avgas burners but only one diesel aircraft. This means whenever the diesel is grounded for maintenance or repair, you are grounded also, while those who are flying avgas aircraft will have alternative aircraft available at all times.
The next question is, when you finally have your PPL, what kind of aircraft are you going to fly? There are as yet very few diesel aircraft in the private fleet, so if you have to convert to avgas you will almost certainly have to undergo 'differences training' in order to learn how to manage an avgas burning engine.
WLAC is a long established (if expensive) club with an excellent reputation. There are, however, other good options in the area you specify and I would particularly recommend one you may care to have a look at. This is The Pilot Centre at Denham. I have personal experience of this outfit and would recommend them unconditionally.
I would not be too bothered about looking for a club with full ATC and hard runways. Wherever you have hard runways and full ATC, you also have commercial traffic, which is invariably given priority over you for takeoffs. This can mean you end up sitting twiddling your thumbs stationary at the hold while you are burning about £3 a minute waiting for Chavair's B737 to land and clear the runway. Anyway, you can add airport experience later.
'Hope this helps.
Happy New Year!
BP.
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I agree with BP about the potential aircraft renting restrictions post-PPL if you have learnt solely on a diesel.
Regarding the club choices available, why not visit both airfields and ask for a guided tour of the facilities including the actual aircraft, engineering - even ATC (they're actually very friendly at Wycombe....!). Ideally take a trial flying lesson at each and see how you get on - the time will count towards your PPL regardless of where you eventually decide to learn.
ATC and hard runways does not mean yuo have commercial traffic to contend with - no more at Wycombe Air Park than at White Waltham. The chances of seeing a B737 at either is retricted to looking up to see the traffic operating out of Heathrow 1000s of feet above.
If cost is important, remember the fleet at Wycombe includes Cessna 152s which work out cheaper.
Also, check how the flying rates are worked out. It may be on engine time, brakes on/brakes off or some other method - it can make quite a difference. Another cost to take into account is membership fees.
Regarding the club choices available, why not visit both airfields and ask for a guided tour of the facilities including the actual aircraft, engineering - even ATC (they're actually very friendly at Wycombe....!). Ideally take a trial flying lesson at each and see how you get on - the time will count towards your PPL regardless of where you eventually decide to learn.
ATC and hard runways does not mean yuo have commercial traffic to contend with - no more at Wycombe Air Park than at White Waltham. The chances of seeing a B737 at either is retricted to looking up to see the traffic operating out of Heathrow 1000s of feet above.
If cost is important, remember the fleet at Wycombe includes Cessna 152s which work out cheaper.
Also, check how the flying rates are worked out. It may be on engine time, brakes on/brakes off or some other method - it can make quite a difference. Another cost to take into account is membership fees.
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Gosh, two replies already and nobody has yet said either of:
(1) Most people don't get a licence in 45 hours. Budgetting for around 60 might be more realistic.
(2) DO NOT PAY UP FRONT. Pay for each lesson on the day. Many have thought they were "saving money" by paying up front, and then lost the lot when the school went bust.
(1) Most people don't get a licence in 45 hours. Budgetting for around 60 might be more realistic.
(2) DO NOT PAY UP FRONT. Pay for each lesson on the day. Many have thought they were "saving money" by paying up front, and then lost the lot when the school went bust.
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Given that choice go for the AVGAS every time.
As above, I'm sure they will have more AVGAS burning aircraft, and those diesel converts are just terrible. They take an aircraft which used to have a smaller lighter AVGAS engine, then fit the large heavy diesel one with a gear box, two fadec systems and a computer controlled VP prop. This means that there is more complication, which you just don't need on something being maintained by the local spanner boy being loosely overseen by someone with an authorisation, and it's a heavier engine on smaller engine mounts, which only buckle when you have a nose heavy landing, which you almost certainly will at some point during training.
If you must fly diesel, find something where the aircraft was designed to accommodate the engine, like a diamond. Still more complicated than it needs to be for GA maintenance.
Also, never pay up front.
As above, I'm sure they will have more AVGAS burning aircraft, and those diesel converts are just terrible. They take an aircraft which used to have a smaller lighter AVGAS engine, then fit the large heavy diesel one with a gear box, two fadec systems and a computer controlled VP prop. This means that there is more complication, which you just don't need on something being maintained by the local spanner boy being loosely overseen by someone with an authorisation, and it's a heavier engine on smaller engine mounts, which only buckle when you have a nose heavy landing, which you almost certainly will at some point during training.
If you must fly diesel, find something where the aircraft was designed to accommodate the engine, like a diamond. Still more complicated than it needs to be for GA maintenance.
Also, never pay up front.
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Never pay up front. There a good reason why I'm repeating what two others have already posted - it is rule number one of learning to fly.
I'd also recommend you fly the AVGAS aircraft, for the reasons stated above. I did part of my training many years ago at Wycombe, with what is now Airways Flying Club, and White Waltham has a long established and good reputation as an airfield, so no recommendation either way from me.
Gertrude is also correct regarding minimum hours. I worked at a flying school for over two years and he's right.
I'd also recommend you fly the AVGAS aircraft, for the reasons stated above. I did part of my training many years ago at Wycombe, with what is now Airways Flying Club, and White Waltham has a long established and good reputation as an airfield, so no recommendation either way from me.
Gertrude is also correct regarding minimum hours. I worked at a flying school for over two years and he's right.
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Personally I just find diesel aircraft a bit strange. I once saw some diesel Piper Archers doing circuits at Elstree, they looked like Archers, but sounded like Vauxhall Nova's and that put me off. Fair enough if it was designed to run on diesel in the first place, and I know JetA1 is similar to diesel, but unless it is a jet, I just think good old AvGas, or MoGas is better.
I can't speak about the differences between the particular airfields you mention, but I would tend to go with the one with the best instructors.
I did my PPL intensively, spread between PA38s and PA28s and within reason, getting experience on more types isn't a bad thing. I would tend to do initial circuit training on an aircraft with mixture controls and carb heat because getting into the habit of using them correctly is important and this habit would be easier to get into if you start using them from the beginning. That said, I would personally be interested to fly a diesel and it may be reasonable to fly the later stages of your course on one.
Which airfield gets you to the area where you will practice maneuvers such as stalls and pfls the fastest? This is likely to make a significant difference to the price of the course. You may get more practice at crosswind landings if you fly from a controlled airfield with more than one runway. If you have the money to pay for the course outright then consider staying in a B&B and doing the course somewhere cheaper, intensively. You'll also be much more likely to get the PPL in minimum hours that way.
I did my PPL intensively, spread between PA38s and PA28s and within reason, getting experience on more types isn't a bad thing. I would tend to do initial circuit training on an aircraft with mixture controls and carb heat because getting into the habit of using them correctly is important and this habit would be easier to get into if you start using them from the beginning. That said, I would personally be interested to fly a diesel and it may be reasonable to fly the later stages of your course on one.
Which airfield gets you to the area where you will practice maneuvers such as stalls and pfls the fastest? This is likely to make a significant difference to the price of the course. You may get more practice at crosswind landings if you fly from a controlled airfield with more than one runway. If you have the money to pay for the course outright then consider staying in a B&B and doing the course somewhere cheaper, intensively. You'll also be much more likely to get the PPL in minimum hours that way.
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I did about half of my PPL training in a diesel PA28 from an 800m farm strip. It was absolutely fine. I did my first solo and a couple of solo nav ex's in it and then my instructor bought an avgas 172 which took me all of 2 hours to convert to before I was sent of for more solo nav ex.
If it's cheaper then there is no reason not to do your PPL in the diesle model. Having since flown an Avgas PA28, the only real difference is a slight reduction in climb rate and you do kind of have to haul the diesel version off the ground at take off.
As I mentioned, I did my PPL out of a farm strip. I now fly from Norwich airport which is Class D and full ATC and it's no problem at all. I wouldn't worry about learning from a commercial airport as it just adds more cost. And grass runways are a bit more forgiving when you are learning how to land
If it's cheaper then there is no reason not to do your PPL in the diesle model. Having since flown an Avgas PA28, the only real difference is a slight reduction in climb rate and you do kind of have to haul the diesel version off the ground at take off.
As I mentioned, I did my PPL out of a farm strip. I now fly from Norwich airport which is Class D and full ATC and it's no problem at all. I wouldn't worry about learning from a commercial airport as it just adds more cost. And grass runways are a bit more forgiving when you are learning how to land
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Both of the clubs mentioned above are very reputable, in fact they are the only two exceptions that prove the rule of don't pay up front.
You are very lucky to have two of the best clubs in the UK on your doorstep.
You are very lucky to have two of the best clubs in the UK on your doorstep.
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If you do decide to pay up front, pay by credit card so if they go bust part way through your training you can get the rest of your money back. Some very well known and reputable schools have gone bust with little warning, leaving students out of pocket.
As others have said - few people complete their PPL in 45 hours, and many of them do it as an intensive course (so less re-learning). Budget for at least 55...
Written exams are likely to be £25-£30 each, with RT practical perhaps £90 and skills test a lot more, although there isn't a fixed price. If cost is part of your calculations, perhaps worth asking the schools in advance? However, they wont add up to much more than a couple of lessons. Landing fees add up too though. When learning the circuit you may have 8 landings in one lesson. If you are paying £10 per landing...
As others have said - few people complete their PPL in 45 hours, and many of them do it as an intensive course (so less re-learning). Budget for at least 55...
Written exams are likely to be £25-£30 each, with RT practical perhaps £90 and skills test a lot more, although there isn't a fixed price. If cost is part of your calculations, perhaps worth asking the schools in advance? However, they wont add up to much more than a couple of lessons. Landing fees add up too though. When learning the circuit you may have 8 landings in one lesson. If you are paying £10 per landing...
