Females only!
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Hello Hannah,
I am a female Student pilot learning in a male dominated club, and there are only three female pilots, all of us students! For much of my time with the club, I ahev been the only female member.
I am learning to fly purely as a hobby (although I may decide on a career change to instruct, but thats further down the line!) Its been my ambition to learn to fly and all the chaps in the club have been really welcoming (well, except one old duffer).
I think the chaps tend to respect female pilots if they are willing to muck in with EVERYTHING. As Taybird says, with cleaning aircraft, refuelling, checks, cleaning and opening the hangar etc. Also, form my perspective, I am willing to learn from ANYONE and I will privately filter out anything which i think is gung ho etc.
I also have worked all my career in a male dominated environment and as Margaret Thatcher said (and I love this quote, sorry you non-Thatcherites) she said that for a woman to get on in a man's world, we have to be twice as good as the men....and I tend to agree.
I think maybe perhaps females think that aviation is a male area only. The problem is that there are so many ingrained issues in the minds of both men and women that they will take a long time to resolve.
two true brilliant stories from the ATA. One, female spitfire pilot had to make a forced landing in a field of cows....she stayed INSIDE her aircraft as she preferred taking her chances with the possibility of an exploding fuel tank, rather than take her chances with the cattle!
The other, a female |ATA pilot landed a Lancaster at an airfield, the chaps surrounded her and asked where the pilot was...she replied that she was the pilot and they were all amazed that she could ahve handled such a large aircraft!
Well, hope that helps, and good luck wth the project. PM me if you want to know anything more.
GQ
I am a female Student pilot learning in a male dominated club, and there are only three female pilots, all of us students! For much of my time with the club, I ahev been the only female member.
I am learning to fly purely as a hobby (although I may decide on a career change to instruct, but thats further down the line!) Its been my ambition to learn to fly and all the chaps in the club have been really welcoming (well, except one old duffer).
I think the chaps tend to respect female pilots if they are willing to muck in with EVERYTHING. As Taybird says, with cleaning aircraft, refuelling, checks, cleaning and opening the hangar etc. Also, form my perspective, I am willing to learn from ANYONE and I will privately filter out anything which i think is gung ho etc.
I also have worked all my career in a male dominated environment and as Margaret Thatcher said (and I love this quote, sorry you non-Thatcherites) she said that for a woman to get on in a man's world, we have to be twice as good as the men....and I tend to agree.
I think maybe perhaps females think that aviation is a male area only. The problem is that there are so many ingrained issues in the minds of both men and women that they will take a long time to resolve.
two true brilliant stories from the ATA. One, female spitfire pilot had to make a forced landing in a field of cows....she stayed INSIDE her aircraft as she preferred taking her chances with the possibility of an exploding fuel tank, rather than take her chances with the cattle!
The other, a female |ATA pilot landed a Lancaster at an airfield, the chaps surrounded her and asked where the pilot was...she replied that she was the pilot and they were all amazed that she could ahve handled such a large aircraft!
Well, hope that helps, and good luck wth the project. PM me if you want to know anything more.
GQ
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Hannah, it doesn't make any difference at all. If there is a lack of women pilots it must be because they are not attracted to learning to fly for some reason. I have met women pilots and instructors and they have been exactly on the same level as men.
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I was shocked when I saw this bit of news a few years ago:
British Airways' first female pilot has been selected to fly the first plane to land at Heathrow's new Terminal 5.
Capt. Lynn Barton, 51, became BA's first woman pilot in 1987.
Basically because it was a recently as 1987 when BA never had a female pilot!
I remember being at university in the late 70s and early 80s and - although I had quite a few friends very active in women's groups - never thought that a major airline didn't have female pilots.
The biggest hurdle is that few people wish to the first - they may wish like heck to be a (whatever) but if they would be the first (whatever) then it also throws up too many other hurdles. Such as: promotion prospects possible being poor because you will, obviously, be under greater scrutiny and you will have to disrupt the existing long-established hierarchy.
So I was really pleased the other week on one of my rare commercial flights to find the flight deck was all-female.
But the clear career paths now available - there were even getting near an even number of female pilots as male pilots in the Bush Pilots series - the big question is why still so few women in aviation.
Even in sport flying, about 3or 4% of the British Microlight Aircraft Association members are female.
Maybe it is the very male smell in the toilets!
Whatever, I wish you all the luck with your research.
Aviation would be a far better place with at least 50 per cent more pilots - which is what we would have if we had more female students, to start with.
British Airways' first female pilot has been selected to fly the first plane to land at Heathrow's new Terminal 5.
Capt. Lynn Barton, 51, became BA's first woman pilot in 1987.
Basically because it was a recently as 1987 when BA never had a female pilot!
I remember being at university in the late 70s and early 80s and - although I had quite a few friends very active in women's groups - never thought that a major airline didn't have female pilots.
The biggest hurdle is that few people wish to the first - they may wish like heck to be a (whatever) but if they would be the first (whatever) then it also throws up too many other hurdles. Such as: promotion prospects possible being poor because you will, obviously, be under greater scrutiny and you will have to disrupt the existing long-established hierarchy.
So I was really pleased the other week on one of my rare commercial flights to find the flight deck was all-female.
But the clear career paths now available - there were even getting near an even number of female pilots as male pilots in the Bush Pilots series - the big question is why still so few women in aviation.
Even in sport flying, about 3or 4% of the British Microlight Aircraft Association members are female.
Maybe it is the very male smell in the toilets!
Whatever, I wish you all the luck with your research.
Aviation would be a far better place with at least 50 per cent more pilots - which is what we would have if we had more female students, to start with.
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hmmmm?
"a woman to get on in a man's world, we have to be twice as good as the
men....and I tend to agree."
well, I can't imagine anyone,male or female, being twice the pilot Lindbergh, Wilbur and Orville, James Doolitle is/was.
I think this statement is really absurd. And I do like Margaret Thatcher.
I think the statement is equally absurd when applied to people of color.
Judge each pilot on his/her own merits. But in order to truly judge someone, your own knowledge must be very, very good.
men....and I tend to agree."
well, I can't imagine anyone,male or female, being twice the pilot Lindbergh, Wilbur and Orville, James Doolitle is/was.
I think this statement is really absurd. And I do like Margaret Thatcher.
I think the statement is equally absurd when applied to people of color.
Judge each pilot on his/her own merits. But in order to truly judge someone, your own knowledge must be very, very good.
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Hannah, bear in mind that you may not get women who have experienced discrimination, sexism, "banter" - in any area of life, not just in aviation - to rush forward and post about it publicly.
Much of it is still dismissed as just the "lads having a laugh". And women quickly learn they better fit in and laugh at it, too. Or be prepared to be told they have "no sense of humour", or should "give as good as they get"
Happily, the "banter" seems to come from a minority, but a very vocal minority.
But I'm not sure I understand how - in 2011 - British Airways can still get away with this type of advert
British Airways Advert 2011
Much of it is still dismissed as just the "lads having a laugh". And women quickly learn they better fit in and laugh at it, too. Or be prepared to be told they have "no sense of humour", or should "give as good as they get"
Happily, the "banter" seems to come from a minority, but a very vocal minority.
But I'm not sure I understand how - in 2011 - British Airways can still get away with this type of advert
British Airways Advert 2011
Last edited by FlyingLapinou; 13th Dec 2012 at 11:55.
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Hannah, you are welcome to scrutinise my previous posts on prune.
I began flying at High Wycombe in a glider, aged 50, already had children, foster children, grandchildren.
Now have more than 3,000 hours, IR, 3 diamonds, seaplane rating, glider instructor, and Tugmaster at my gliding club, and represented the UK in the first Women's European Gliding Championship in the USSR - before that political arrangement went down the proverbial....
I fly for fun, nobody ever saw fit to pay me a salary, alas....but never suffered from disrespect. However I do not think women should waste their childbearing years becoming airline pilots, or in fact taking on any other business career that is less important than having a family! So there.
Old commercial pilots, men that is, thrice divorced, bitter and twisted from being disrespected by the airline beancounters, spending nights away with hostile cabin crew in basic hotel accomodation, and unable to hone their true flying skills, being forbidden to fly without using the autopilot in nearly every modern airliner, where's the fun in that?
Men are useful for heavy lifting and getting dirty and covered in grease. But women live longer.
I began flying at High Wycombe in a glider, aged 50, already had children, foster children, grandchildren.
Now have more than 3,000 hours, IR, 3 diamonds, seaplane rating, glider instructor, and Tugmaster at my gliding club, and represented the UK in the first Women's European Gliding Championship in the USSR - before that political arrangement went down the proverbial....
I fly for fun, nobody ever saw fit to pay me a salary, alas....but never suffered from disrespect. However I do not think women should waste their childbearing years becoming airline pilots, or in fact taking on any other business career that is less important than having a family! So there.
Old commercial pilots, men that is, thrice divorced, bitter and twisted from being disrespected by the airline beancounters, spending nights away with hostile cabin crew in basic hotel accomodation, and unable to hone their true flying skills, being forbidden to fly without using the autopilot in nearly every modern airliner, where's the fun in that?
Men are useful for heavy lifting and getting dirty and covered in grease. But women live longer.
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"the big question is why still so few women in aviation."
Is it the big question? I thought it was fairly obvious - the majority of women simply aren't interested. There's no disputing that on the whole, certain genders tend more toward the skills needed for certain careers, and while I'm sure its a lot less of a 'thing' than it was even 30 years ago when I was a kiddie, there's still an element of social conformity to roles. 8 year old me liked planes, people would suggest I become a flight attendant, not a pilot.
Hit one of those 'is your brain male or female' tests and I bet all the women pilots and engineers are veering into the 'male' category. I did one a while back and found myself 25% into 'male' while the average for women is 50% into 'female'. So I'm rubbish at having an emotional conversation but pretty handy at reverse parking.
I would hate to see the aviation world striving for 50:50 representation of the sexes - if you're interested, do it. If you're not, don't bother. There's nothing worse than forced equality. If you need it handed to you on a plate, through special recruitment schemes or targeted advertising, you didn't want it badly enough in the first place.
Likewise women in politics, the fire service, men in midwifery....
Is it the big question? I thought it was fairly obvious - the majority of women simply aren't interested. There's no disputing that on the whole, certain genders tend more toward the skills needed for certain careers, and while I'm sure its a lot less of a 'thing' than it was even 30 years ago when I was a kiddie, there's still an element of social conformity to roles. 8 year old me liked planes, people would suggest I become a flight attendant, not a pilot.
Hit one of those 'is your brain male or female' tests and I bet all the women pilots and engineers are veering into the 'male' category. I did one a while back and found myself 25% into 'male' while the average for women is 50% into 'female'. So I'm rubbish at having an emotional conversation but pretty handy at reverse parking.
I would hate to see the aviation world striving for 50:50 representation of the sexes - if you're interested, do it. If you're not, don't bother. There's nothing worse than forced equality. If you need it handed to you on a plate, through special recruitment schemes or targeted advertising, you didn't want it badly enough in the first place.
Likewise women in politics, the fire service, men in midwifery....
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I wonder if it a money thing. The cost of most things in Aviation is high and I wonder if women (in general) cant justify the cost to themselves, whereas men (and again this is very general) will try and justify it, forsaking all else.
My wife has a PPL, and in the small number of clubs or airfields I have visited or been a member of, I just havent seen any discrimination against women, nor the need to have to prove themselves any more than men. I would probably say that most people realise there arent many women in aviation, and all are welcomed and want to keep them in the community.
My wife has a PPL, and in the small number of clubs or airfields I have visited or been a member of, I just havent seen any discrimination against women, nor the need to have to prove themselves any more than men. I would probably say that most people realise there arent many women in aviation, and all are welcomed and want to keep them in the community.
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piperarcher
I think its more of a testosterone thing its a very male thing flying an aircraft guns blazing! The Hero which in turn makes the male more attractive to the female.
Same thing with hot cars
You get the picture
a leather jacket sporting a pair of raybans the top gun syndrome.
Boys with their Toys thing.
Women tend to fly more for the love of aviation minus the testosterone factor.
I do not think money really comes into it in this day and age.
Pace
I think its more of a testosterone thing its a very male thing flying an aircraft guns blazing! The Hero which in turn makes the male more attractive to the female.
Same thing with hot cars
You get the picture
a leather jacket sporting a pair of raybans the top gun syndrome.Boys with their Toys thing.
Women tend to fly more for the love of aviation minus the testosterone factor.
I do not think money really comes into it in this day and age.
Pace
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I have to make a concerted effort not to talk about flying to non flying friends, it must bore them as much as cars and dogs bore me.
As to why there aren't more women in flying, what does it matter? There's nothing to stop anyone learning to fly with the requisite brain cells, I can't see it being anything other than they just aren't as interested.
As to why there aren't more women in flying, what does it matter? There's nothing to stop anyone learning to fly with the requisite brain cells, I can't see it being anything other than they just aren't as interested.
I would hate to see the aviation world striving for 50:50 representation of the sexes - if you're interested, do it. If you're not, don't bother. There's nothing worse than forced equality.
If a woman can be a supervisor or run a business she can run a crew and fly an airplane.
Traditional role models still play a factor as does the male-female brain thing.
However not a good enough reason to not promote it among girls/women as a career choice.
Last edited by B2N2; 13th Dec 2012 at 13:52.
Presumably they get away with the advert because flying really was predominantly a male career in those days, though there were plenty of women pioneers (Amelia Earhardt, Hanna Reitsch etc...) who flew recreationally or to break records, and whose skills were recognised in their own time. It would have been silly if they'd rewritten history to have a woman pilot carrying passengers on the Rapide, though it wouldn't have hurt them to shown a lady flying the more modern airliners.
My impression is that aviation isn't as enlightened as it sometimes seems to think it is. There's certainly a fair amount of sexist banter in club rooms, though probably most female pilots don't get to hear much of it.
Interestingly, I get the impression that there's now quite a high proportion of female commercial pilots coming through training, whereas relatively few women seem to train for a vanilla PPL. It would be interesting to see some numbers.
My impression is that aviation isn't as enlightened as it sometimes seems to think it is. There's certainly a fair amount of sexist banter in club rooms, though probably most female pilots don't get to hear much of it.
Interestingly, I get the impression that there's now quite a high proportion of female commercial pilots coming through training, whereas relatively few women seem to train for a vanilla PPL. It would be interesting to see some numbers.
How would they find the time to fly when their is the shopping, washing, ironing, cleaning and cooking ?
Give them a broom
Give them a broom
Rwy in Sight
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Mary, that frankly was a superb post. In fact, possibly the most honest and correct thing I have read recently on Pprune. Five stars for that one
We live in a pretty non sensical world nowadays. Everyone skirting about the edges in what is ' the correct thing to say', our, 'ever so PC world'.
I watch women strive for it all, the 'we must have everything brigade'. Dumping the six month old at the nursery, from 7 in the morning, to 5 at night. Children, quite frankly, devoid of love and attention, devoid of any normality in their life's, from a very early age.
Then they sit and wonder why it all goes pear shaped. My view is that if women want a career, go for it. They can be anything they want to be, but do not have kids. It is not just aviation, women today can strive for it, and in a lot of cases, are better than men, in their particular career choice. The issues arrive when that good old animal, maternal instinct kicks in. But I want a child.
We are what we are, a higher level of animal, with all of our age old natural instincts still in the system, in our DNA.
Friend (female), is about to have a baby, then immediately onto A380 course. That is going to work me thinks........Not.
We live in a pretty non sensical world nowadays. Everyone skirting about the edges in what is ' the correct thing to say', our, 'ever so PC world'.
I watch women strive for it all, the 'we must have everything brigade'. Dumping the six month old at the nursery, from 7 in the morning, to 5 at night. Children, quite frankly, devoid of love and attention, devoid of any normality in their life's, from a very early age.
Then they sit and wonder why it all goes pear shaped. My view is that if women want a career, go for it. They can be anything they want to be, but do not have kids. It is not just aviation, women today can strive for it, and in a lot of cases, are better than men, in their particular career choice. The issues arrive when that good old animal, maternal instinct kicks in. But I want a child.
We are what we are, a higher level of animal, with all of our age old natural instincts still in the system, in our DNA.
Friend (female), is about to have a baby, then immediately onto A380 course. That is going to work me thinks........Not.
Last edited by maxred; 13th Dec 2012 at 17:41.
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How would they find the time to fly when their is the shopping, washing, ironing, cleaning and cooking ?
Dont, snigger any longer,men, doesn't it strike you as odd, that Bakers Professional Chefs, launderette operators, Professional cleaning and Valeting companies and Window cleaners.................................................
ARE PREDOMINANTLY MALE!!!!!
Truth is, GENERALLY, women are the hard-wired homemaking nurturers, men are the macho hunter-gatherer-protectors.
At school in the early 60's I queried the stereotypical curriculum.....boys had metalwork,woodwork and Technical Drawing, the girls did Domestic Science (cooking) neddlework and shorthand/typing......even though there were males who would gravitate toward the afore -mentioned "male" industries and male Clerks were commonplace, training was NOT an option in school...how enlightened.....NOT.
Come the 80's my sons were given school-lessons in the basics...came the "baking cakes next time , so bring an egg and a packet of cake-mix"..No. 2 wrote out the recipe, knocked up a sponge cake and the following morning shoved it under "teacher's" nose with , "THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE A BLOODY CAKE, BYE BYE"...went off to "play" computers.
IMHO, Gender is totally irelevant...daughter had a colleague who arrived late due to his "hot hatch" car being extremely reluctant to start...she offered to "have a look" and sorted it in 5 minutes,much to that Asian male's astonishment...'cos girls didn't "do" mechanical or electrical in his culture!
That would be about 10 years ago......has it changed?
Used to be an attractive Blonde driving a Skip-lorry in Oldham....the people who rented skips just to ogle her, soon learned to respect her because SHE COULD DO THE JOB COMPETENTLY....that was about 20 years ago.
Just as the male midwife has to prove himself in a mainly Female profession, so with females in a "male" environment
truth of the matter is the exception stands out in ANY field and their peers will judge them on their ability, pure and simple.
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I've had much better luck with female instructors during my training days than anything else. I just tend to get along with them better and learn more. The cockpit is much calmer and less willy-waving. Damn fine pilots all of them, too. And every time I hear a female captain (it's not often) over the tannoy, I smile a little, knowing they've come a slightly longer way than their male counterparts. I appreciate the hard work it took to get there. I tip my hat off to them for breaking stereotypes and moulds.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 14th Dec 2012 at 12:43.