Chipmunk in a crosswind
Moderator
Thread Starter
Chipmunk in a crosswind
I had a happy hour in a Chipmunk yesterday but on landing was presented with a 90 degree crosswind up to 15 knots. I have 35 hours on type but a lot of other tail wheel types in my log book over the years.
Normally in such conditions I set a couple notches of brake and wheel the aircraft on. The landing was perfect and the tail settled nicely but after a couple of seconds a gust caught me to the left. Correcting to the right brought on a series of yaws ending up with an embarrasing ground loop at around ten knots. No damage to the aircraft but a lot to my pride!!
What's the general consesus of how to handle limiting crosswinds in the Chippy. How do you do it and do you preset some brake before landing or trust in the brake lever?
Thanks for your answers.
BB
Normally in such conditions I set a couple notches of brake and wheel the aircraft on. The landing was perfect and the tail settled nicely but after a couple of seconds a gust caught me to the left. Correcting to the right brought on a series of yaws ending up with an embarrasing ground loop at around ten knots. No damage to the aircraft but a lot to my pride!!
What's the general consesus of how to handle limiting crosswinds in the Chippy. How do you do it and do you preset some brake before landing or trust in the brake lever?
Thanks for your answers.
BB
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never set brake before landing in a Chippy, except perhaps during the early phases of being checked out and you have yet to get used to the aeroplane.
I say this as someone who has flown one over the last 33 years, ever since gaining my PPL, and has never ever ground looped.
Setting brake will result in exactly the situation you describe; you have limited rudder travel due the brake being set, and at that limit you will apply the brake when what you really need is more rudder! Result? You arrest the incipient swing but when you run out of rudder and hit the brake... you set off a swing the other way - and so on until you ground loop!
You are depriving yourself of full rudder, and running into brake application in a harsh manner.
Leave the brakes unset. Use ALL the available rudder. If that's not enough (you hit the stop but the incipient swing hasn't ceased) just GENTLY pull back on the brake lever. You'll already have the relevant full rudder on, so only the requisite wheel will be braked, and in a much more controlled manner than running out of rudder and hitting harsh brake before the rudder bar has reached the stop!
In fact, I use my little finger, hooked around the brake lever, to geeeeently feeeed in juuuust enough brake (puuuull while you feeeel) to negate the incipient swing without starting one the other way! And all this while holding full anti-swing rudder. It really is the only way to do it! And very satisfying!
I say this as someone who has flown one over the last 33 years, ever since gaining my PPL, and has never ever ground looped.
Setting brake will result in exactly the situation you describe; you have limited rudder travel due the brake being set, and at that limit you will apply the brake when what you really need is more rudder! Result? You arrest the incipient swing but when you run out of rudder and hit the brake... you set off a swing the other way - and so on until you ground loop!
You are depriving yourself of full rudder, and running into brake application in a harsh manner.
Leave the brakes unset. Use ALL the available rudder. If that's not enough (you hit the stop but the incipient swing hasn't ceased) just GENTLY pull back on the brake lever. You'll already have the relevant full rudder on, so only the requisite wheel will be braked, and in a much more controlled manner than running out of rudder and hitting harsh brake before the rudder bar has reached the stop!
In fact, I use my little finger, hooked around the brake lever, to geeeeently feeeed in juuuust enough brake (puuuull while you feeeel) to negate the incipient swing without starting one the other way! And all this while holding full anti-swing rudder. It really is the only way to do it! And very satisfying!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 29th Nov 2012 at 21:23.
Moderator
Thread Starter
Think you're probably right Shaggy. I normally wouldn't set the brakes before landing but thought that with the crosswind on limits it might be a good idea...........or not, as proved by the result.
Moderator
Thread Starter
Well that's the idea that I was working on, but the aircraft had not flown since August and had it's six months check in between so the brakes were working well (for a change)
BB
BB
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to put to bed the 'RAF always taught' myth. Here's a post from a highly respected member of PPRuNe last time we had this discussion:
You have to remember that the pilot's notes are written by a chap (albeit a clever one - he's a test pilot) who has never flown the aircraft before and has limited time and a limited budget to get the book written. In the Chippy's case, the chap came up with the idea of using brake for landing in strong crosswinds and left it at that. I was involved with the Chippy on and off for about the last 10 years of it's life (excluding BBMF) in the RAF and in that time brake was never used for landing as an SOP despite being in the Pliot's Notes and the FRCs (checklists) for all of those years. The x-wind limit is 15 knts, full rudder was perfectly adquate to maintain straight in these conditions. However, with a gust, the technique which SSD advocates (a squeeze of brake) work wonders. Applying full rudder in a panic with the brakes set slightly will invariaby end up in a groundloop which is why we didn't.
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 30th Nov 2012 at 08:47.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SSD, each to his own, however, 1/2 clicks were applied on take off, and never re set, therefore landings were generally conducted with 1/2 clicks on. I have several hundred hours on type, and have never ground looped either.
I think it depends on experience level, and what the PIC is comfortable with. Remember that a strong crosswind landing is always going to be a challenge in a tail dragger, and the Chippy with relatively large rudder area, will be very responsive to input. Start phaphing about with hand on brake, wondering whether to pull slightly or not, whilst attempting to keep straight etc etc, may be alright for you and your experience, but may not be an accomplishment for someone else with perhaps less taildragger time.
They did turn out a hell of a lot of pilots, apparently very well trained, on this type, with their methods
I think it depends on experience level, and what the PIC is comfortable with. Remember that a strong crosswind landing is always going to be a challenge in a tail dragger, and the Chippy with relatively large rudder area, will be very responsive to input. Start phaphing about with hand on brake, wondering whether to pull slightly or not, whilst attempting to keep straight etc etc, may be alright for you and your experience, but may not be an accomplishment for someone else with perhaps less taildragger time.
'RAF always taught' myth
Last edited by maxred; 30th Nov 2012 at 08:56.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's an excellent system that works well once you're used to it. Much better than the system on the Yak52!
I do hope maxred isn't serious when he says
Very sloppy technique, and downright dangerous! Any brake left on in flight can prevent spin recovery by limiting the available rudder travel - especially in a fully developed flattish Chippy spin where recovery isn't instant anyway!
And one of the pre-take off checks is 'brakes fully off'! (Why would anyone want brakes on for take off??
)
I do hope maxred isn't serious when he says
"1/2 clicks were applied on take off, and never re set, therefore landings were generally conducted with 1/2 clicks on."
And one of the pre-take off checks is 'brakes fully off'! (Why would anyone want brakes on for take off??
)
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 30th Nov 2012 at 12:45.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the north
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I learned and flew Chipmunks (RAF) the clicks were used for taxying and landing if conditions were adverse but never take off or flight.
Yes one can squeeze the brake but that does mean moving hands from the throttle or stick.
Yes one can squeeze the brake but that does mean moving hands from the throttle or stick.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very sloppy technique, and downright dangerous! Any brake left on in flight can prevent spin recovery by limiting the available rudder travel - especially in a fully developed flattish Chippy spin where recovery isn't instant anyway!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maxred, you said
Crosswind or not, that's dangerous! A potential killer, in fact.
Also, see the above comment about the Chippy pilot's notes. A very valid point!
Use the left hand for the brake. When operating the brake lever in the (vanishingly rare) event of needing differential brake when full rudder is not enough, you are in the latter part of the roll-out, throttle shut, and can use your left (throttle) hand; RH is keeping the stick hard back of course.
What's wrong with the dH design? It works beautifully, all the way from 'brakes always on' (for when parked) to zero brake (any other time apart from taxy). No heavy brake pedals and mechanism on the rudder bar (as you have with toe brakes) makes it delightfully light to operate. And heel brakes get in the way for aeros!
"1/2 clicks were applied on take off, and never re set, therefore landings were generally conducted with 1/2 clicks on."
Also, see the above comment about the Chippy pilot's notes. A very valid point!
Use the left hand for the brake. When operating the brake lever in the (vanishingly rare) event of needing differential brake when full rudder is not enough, you are in the latter part of the roll-out, throttle shut, and can use your left (throttle) hand; RH is keeping the stick hard back of course.
What's wrong with the dH design? It works beautifully, all the way from 'brakes always on' (for when parked) to zero brake (any other time apart from taxy). No heavy brake pedals and mechanism on the rudder bar (as you have with toe brakes) makes it delightfully light to operate. And heel brakes get in the way for aeros!
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 30th Nov 2012 at 14:55.
I guess Boeing, Cessna, Douglas, Piper, Lockheed, North American and just about everyone else got it wrong then!
Sorry - but IMHO its just about as silly as using a Coffmann starter to crank a 145hp engine..............
Great handling though!
Sorry - but IMHO its just about as silly as using a Coffmann starter to crank a 145hp engine..............
Great handling though!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew the chippy for 40 hours at Elstree in 1965 on a flying scholarship, and about 60 hours in 1967 at an airfield just SE of Southampton. IIRC, we never set the brake in flight for any reaon at either school.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess Boeing, Cessna, Douglas, Piper, Lockheed, North American and just about everyone else got it wrong then!
I ask again.. what is wrong with dH's method? Is it just that you're used to toe / heel brakes and so dH's isn't intuitive for you? It's an excellent system that contributes to that 'excellent handling' by keeping mass off the rudder bar, and once you are used to it it's far more flexible in use, with wider options in a taildragger that's agile on the ground as well as in the air, than any toe or heel brake.
I felt the same about the Yak52 when I first tried it; fully castoring nosewheel and mainwheel brakes operated by the rudder bar position in conjuction with a stick-mounted bicycle-type brake lever to active the appropriate air brake on the main wheel.
"Oh for a nice dH system" I thought as I hissed my way across the apron somewhat uncertainly. But after a short while flying the aeroplane I saw the sense of it - like the dH system, no clutter on the rudder bar keeps the controls light and low-mass, and no heel brakes in the way to hinder your feet. Nice system!
Give me either the Yak or the dH system any day above toe or heel brakes (and yes, I've plenty of experience of them in Cessnas, PA28s / 38s, Cubs, Citabrias and many more).
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 30th Nov 2012 at 16:44.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GLASGOW
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done SSD. In a couple of posts you have...........
Suggested that the whole RAF training, on the DH Chipmunk, was, well...wrong.
Suggested that the Test guys who wrote the notes, were, well.....wrong.
Suggested that the majority of US based and manufactured training types, were, well......poorly designed.
Suggested that everyone else who has an opinion, is well....wrong.
Good days work at the office I would suggest......LOL
Suggested that the whole RAF training, on the DH Chipmunk, was, well...wrong.
Suggested that the Test guys who wrote the notes, were, well.....wrong.
Suggested that the majority of US based and manufactured training types, were, well......poorly designed.
Suggested that everyone else who has an opinion, is well....wrong.
Good days work at the office I would suggest......LOL