Logging flt time with a flying instructor.
Part 2 of GID 44 has if all laid out in black and white.
"Pu/t Pilot under instruction for the purose of gaining a licence or rating, or for conversion to an aircraft type within an aircraft rating group or class."
This does not appear to include refresher training with an instructor, which is training towards the renewal or revalidation of a licence or rating.
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Well, Ive been watching this thread evolve with great amusement and remember the last time it was debated about six months or so ago.
M14P, you asked if someone had asked FCL....funnily enough, as I had been going to lots of different clubs and getting conflicting information I did ask FCL this question. I posted an account of what I was told over the phone then and Ill do it again. So, as posted last time.......
.. I later called the CAA and was told the following:
1. Your Logbook is your own personal record.
2. P1/s is ONLY for a flight test with an Examiner, Eg for your PPL, IR, Twin Rating etc. You total these hours as SOLO.
3. If, when you have a PPL, you fly with an Instructor on a check-out, if he is TRAINING you on a new aeroplane type, ie he demonstrates something to you and touches the controls etc. Then you are PUT and the hours are DUAL.
4. If, when you have a PPL, you have flown this aeroplane type before and YOU are demonstrating to the instructor you can fly the club aeroplane OK, ie he does NOT touch the controls during the flight, then you can log the flight as P1 for yourself.
The guy I spoke to at the CAA said himself that this is a grey area and summed up by saying only one person can log the flight as P1, but alot of pilots are cheating themselves out of P1 hours.
....And I would also like to add that the last time I posted this I was severely flamed, so do FCL personnel still not know what they are talking about, as I was informed by a few of you last time??
....SD dons flak jacket in advance this time and goes to hide in his cellar awaiting incoming.....
M14P, you asked if someone had asked FCL....funnily enough, as I had been going to lots of different clubs and getting conflicting information I did ask FCL this question. I posted an account of what I was told over the phone then and Ill do it again. So, as posted last time.......
.. I later called the CAA and was told the following:
1. Your Logbook is your own personal record.
2. P1/s is ONLY for a flight test with an Examiner, Eg for your PPL, IR, Twin Rating etc. You total these hours as SOLO.
3. If, when you have a PPL, you fly with an Instructor on a check-out, if he is TRAINING you on a new aeroplane type, ie he demonstrates something to you and touches the controls etc. Then you are PUT and the hours are DUAL.
4. If, when you have a PPL, you have flown this aeroplane type before and YOU are demonstrating to the instructor you can fly the club aeroplane OK, ie he does NOT touch the controls during the flight, then you can log the flight as P1 for yourself.
The guy I spoke to at the CAA said himself that this is a grey area and summed up by saying only one person can log the flight as P1, but alot of pilots are cheating themselves out of P1 hours.
....And I would also like to add that the last time I posted this I was severely flamed, so do FCL personnel still not know what they are talking about, as I was informed by a few of you last time??
....SD dons flak jacket in advance this time and goes to hide in his cellar awaiting incoming.....
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So by the admission of the CAA this is a
That doesn't sound like an answer to me. 'Grey Area'!? Besides, P1/us counts at full rate up to certain cutoff points depending on whether you are applying for another license. None of the above answers the 'legal' question as to whether training has taken place.
If training has taken place then 'Dual Flights' cannot happen at unlicensed fields.
Also, since the commander should be designated before take-off that would preclude doing a 2 Yearly 'Dual Flight' and then handling the controls as an instructor to demostrate an exercise (which may then be satisfactorily repeated) because the mantle of command will have shifted from one person to the other.
I also note that the man from FCL did not say "ANO, GID or AIC explains this fully"
I am not saying that I am right (especially after the diverse information published here) but I am saying that it is not as simple as some people believe and that there may be serious legal implications to this.
Enjoy
The guy I spoke to at the CAA said himself that this is a grey area and summed up by saying only one person can log the flight as P1, but alot of pilots are cheating themselves out of P1 hours.
If training has taken place then 'Dual Flights' cannot happen at unlicensed fields.
Also, since the commander should be designated before take-off that would preclude doing a 2 Yearly 'Dual Flight' and then handling the controls as an instructor to demostrate an exercise (which may then be satisfactorily repeated) because the mantle of command will have shifted from one person to the other.
I also note that the man from FCL did not say "ANO, GID or AIC explains this fully"
I am not saying that I am right (especially after the diverse information published here) but I am saying that it is not as simple as some people believe and that there may be serious legal implications to this.
Enjoy
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phd, I think you're wrong (or maybe I've just misunderstood you) when you say "If you were doing a checkride with someone who is not an Instructor on a group owned aircraft or similar for familiarisation purposes, I presume it would be logged as P1?"
As I understand it, the only time that more than one person can log flight time simultaneously (except on a multi-pilot aircraft) is if one of them is an instructor. So if you're doing a check-ride with someone who is not an instructor, he would be P1, and you would not be able to log the time. (Or you could log, and he couldn't, in which case you're in charge, which would seem a bit strange if he's checking you out.) (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)
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In response - I think you are wrong - or maybe I have misunderstood you!
If I do a check ride with another similar licence holder on a group owned aircraft which they are current on but that I have not flown before, but which my licence entitles me to fly as P1, then I would not hesitate to record this in my logbook as P1. After all the other pilot is only there to help familiarise me with the idiosyncrasies of the particular aircraft, and offer advice if there are any aspects of its operation which are significantly different from types I have flown previously. I am doing all the handling and they are not an instructor and so cannot give me any instruction. It cannot be recorded as P U/T nor as P1 U/S and therefore must be P1. The other pilot would not be able to record it at all - since he is a passenger unless I give him control! If I did give him control - he would record the time he was in control and I would record the time I was in control.
Of course if any out there knows better - please join the debate.
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phd, I think you're wrong (or maybe I've just misunderstood you) when you say "If you were doing a checkride with someone who is not an Instructor on a group owned aircraft or similar for familiarisation purposes, I presume it would be logged as P1?"
As I understand it, the only time that more than one person can log flight time simultaneously (except on a multi-pilot aircraft) is if one of them is an instructor. So if you're doing a check-ride with someone who is not an instructor, he would be P1, and you would not be able to log the time. (Or you could log, and he couldn't, in which case you're in charge, which would seem a bit strange if he's checking you out.) (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!)
==============================================
In response - I think you are wrong - or maybe I have misunderstood you!
If I do a check ride with another similar licence holder on a group owned aircraft which they are current on but that I have not flown before, but which my licence entitles me to fly as P1, then I would not hesitate to record this in my logbook as P1. After all the other pilot is only there to help familiarise me with the idiosyncrasies of the particular aircraft, and offer advice if there are any aspects of its operation which are significantly different from types I have flown previously. I am doing all the handling and they are not an instructor and so cannot give me any instruction. It cannot be recorded as P U/T nor as P1 U/S and therefore must be P1. The other pilot would not be able to record it at all - since he is a passenger unless I give him control! If I did give him control - he would record the time he was in control and I would record the time I was in control.
Of course if any out there knows better - please join the debate.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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phd,
In that case, I misunderstood you, and I don't think you were wrong - I'm sorry. (I'd interpreted your post to mean that you'd both log P1.)
If I were in that position, I think I would expect the pilot who was familiar with the aircraft to be P1, and I wouldn't log. After all, he's the person who's going to be responsible for getting us out of trouble if I screw up. Just two different ways of looking at it. But I think that, as long as you agree between you, before the flight, who is P1, either method is correct, as long as only one of you is logging P1 at any one time.
FFF
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In that case, I misunderstood you, and I don't think you were wrong - I'm sorry. (I'd interpreted your post to mean that you'd both log P1.)
If I were in that position, I think I would expect the pilot who was familiar with the aircraft to be P1, and I wouldn't log. After all, he's the person who's going to be responsible for getting us out of trouble if I screw up. Just two different ways of looking at it. But I think that, as long as you agree between you, before the flight, who is P1, either method is correct, as long as only one of you is logging P1 at any one time.
FFF
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I would just like to make one point from the other side of the fence. I you fly with a FI in whatever capacity, he will be the commander. One simple reason being that if the s!&t does hit the fan, and something does go wrong, however innocent, or unaviodable, he is the one who is held accountable, and who's professional flying integrity is at stake. They are not just an educated passenger. Even if just a check out for insurance purposes, log flight time as P1/us, countersigned to this effect. It adds credit to your log book. One last point. Don't believe someone with more expierience and insight, is just an educated passenger. Very few PPL private hirer's have much more than a basic compertance. They mostly all do have a very high opinion of their abilities though. Be happy to listern, take advice, be thorough and thoughtful in your flying, and be glad to take some constructive instruction. If after gaining your PPL, you have 200hrs P1, 0hrs put, you won't be consolidating and won't be improving.
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Here is my 2 Euro worth;
JAR-FCL Quotes;
"(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under
supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision
is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may
log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when
all of the duties and functions of PIC on that
flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of
safety was not required."
PA28s etc do not have co-pilots.
"(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane."
Thus an instructor logs the time spent on the check out as command time.
"(iv) The holder of an examiner’s
authorisation may log as pilot-in-
command all flight time during which
he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an
examiner in an aeroplane."
Thus the examminer logs an examination flight as Pilot in Command. There is no mention of the result.
"(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight
time and flight time as student pilot-in-
command provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor."
Thus the applicant logs the flight time as SPIC - Student Pilot In Command.
If a qualified pilot requires a checkout then this is because they are unable to fly solo due to insurance or club rules. Thus a flight instructor is appointed to be the Pilot in command for the flight - not a licence requirement. If the flight instructor was not the pilot in command then the insurance would not be valid.
In that case, the qualified pilot being checked would log the time as SPIC as per above.
That column in old log books where we placed P/UT etc is redundant.
The reference is JAR-FCL 1.080
DFC
JAR-FCL Quotes;
"(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under
supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision
is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may
log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when
all of the duties and functions of PIC on that
flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of
safety was not required."
PA28s etc do not have co-pilots.
"(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane."
Thus an instructor logs the time spent on the check out as command time.
"(iv) The holder of an examiner’s
authorisation may log as pilot-in-
command all flight time during which
he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an
examiner in an aeroplane."
Thus the examminer logs an examination flight as Pilot in Command. There is no mention of the result.
"(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight
time and flight time as student pilot-in-
command provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor."
Thus the applicant logs the flight time as SPIC - Student Pilot In Command.
If a qualified pilot requires a checkout then this is because they are unable to fly solo due to insurance or club rules. Thus a flight instructor is appointed to be the Pilot in command for the flight - not a licence requirement. If the flight instructor was not the pilot in command then the insurance would not be valid.
In that case, the qualified pilot being checked would log the time as SPIC as per above.
That column in old log books where we placed P/UT etc is redundant.
The reference is JAR-FCL 1.080
DFC
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Just printed off GID No. 44 from the CAA website. Part 2 of the doc. has quite a useful table (IMHO) which breaks it all down quite nicely. P u/t isn't redundant, from what I can see.
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Oops. Before anybody else says anything, I've just re-read the previous postings, and it was the column, not the P u/t designation referred to as being redundant. Should read it a bit better next time!!
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Perhaps, I jumped the gun a bit by saying that the column is redundant.
Under the JAR, you log "Pilot-In-Command" or "Co-Pilot" or "Dual"
I suppose that using an old log book format, one would have to use the column to indicate the difference between a dual flight and a co-pilot flight since these are recorded in the same column.
However what I said above about logging Student Pilot In Command is straight out of the rule book and as per the quote from JAR above SIPC time is logged as P1.
Please do not confuse SPIC time with Solo time.
SPIC means that there is an instructor or examiner in the aircraft and they will certify the log book entry.
A student flying SOLO is on their own in the aircraft and are the Pilot in Command.
A person logging P1/S is a co-pilot. (see above JAR quote).
Perhaps the simplest answer of all is to put "SPIC" in the column where in the past you put "P1/S" and in the same way as before, log the time as pilot in command and get the instructor to sign it. That should keep everyone happy since you get to log P1 time, the instructor gets to log P1 time and it is all 100% as per JAR-FCL.
Hope that covers it.
DFC
Under the JAR, you log "Pilot-In-Command" or "Co-Pilot" or "Dual"
I suppose that using an old log book format, one would have to use the column to indicate the difference between a dual flight and a co-pilot flight since these are recorded in the same column.
However what I said above about logging Student Pilot In Command is straight out of the rule book and as per the quote from JAR above SIPC time is logged as P1.
Please do not confuse SPIC time with Solo time.
SPIC means that there is an instructor or examiner in the aircraft and they will certify the log book entry.
A student flying SOLO is on their own in the aircraft and are the Pilot in Command.
A person logging P1/S is a co-pilot. (see above JAR quote).
Perhaps the simplest answer of all is to put "SPIC" in the column where in the past you put "P1/S" and in the same way as before, log the time as pilot in command and get the instructor to sign it. That should keep everyone happy since you get to log P1 time, the instructor gets to log P1 time and it is all 100% as per JAR-FCL.
Hope that covers it.
DFC
Last edited by DFC; 23rd Apr 2002 at 11:25.
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CAA Guide in respect of SPIC states:
"Student Pilot In Command. (Pilot acting as pilot in command during a recognised course of training, under the supervision of a flight instructor. The flight instructor shall only observe the student acting as pilot in command and shall not influence or control the flight of the aircraft" Enter time in P1 column
The definition in respect of P/UT is:
"Pilot under instruction for the purpose of gaining a licence or rating, or for conversion to an aircraft type withing an aircraft rating group or class" Enter time in Dual column.
Don't know whether this helps anyone - it may only serve to confuse the issue even more in respect of the original question asked many postings ago!!
"Student Pilot In Command. (Pilot acting as pilot in command during a recognised course of training, under the supervision of a flight instructor. The flight instructor shall only observe the student acting as pilot in command and shall not influence or control the flight of the aircraft" Enter time in P1 column
The definition in respect of P/UT is:
"Pilot under instruction for the purpose of gaining a licence or rating, or for conversion to an aircraft type withing an aircraft rating group or class" Enter time in Dual column.
Don't know whether this helps anyone - it may only serve to confuse the issue even more in respect of the original question asked many postings ago!!
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If you are current on type and you are being checked for the clubs purposes ie insurance so you are able to fly their planes, yes you are PIC. but if you are not current or different type then your FI is PIC.
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Skegazer,
Do you have a link to the CAA document that you are getting the info from?
Sees to be the same as the JAR definitions of what the terms mean OK with very slight variations. However the definitions and the rules regarding logging of flight time are different.
Very interesting definition of flight time under JAR;
"Flight time: The total time from the moment that an aircraft first moves under its own or external
power for the purpose of taking off until the
moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight."
I must remember the "external power bit" next time I push the aircraft out of the hangar.
Could be the cheapest 8 hours flying yet......push back at 0800, airborne 1545, land 1555, on blocks 1600......airborne for 10 minutes but 8 hours flight time.
Won't take long to get 20,000 hours that way.
DFC
Do you have a link to the CAA document that you are getting the info from?
Sees to be the same as the JAR definitions of what the terms mean OK with very slight variations. However the definitions and the rules regarding logging of flight time are different.
Very interesting definition of flight time under JAR;
"Flight time: The total time from the moment that an aircraft first moves under its own or external
power for the purpose of taking off until the
moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight."
I must remember the "external power bit" next time I push the aircraft out of the hangar.
Could be the cheapest 8 hours flying yet......push back at 0800, airborne 1545, land 1555, on blocks 1600......airborne for 10 minutes but 8 hours flight time.
Won't take long to get 20,000 hours that way.
DFC
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DFC
Link to the CAA doc as follows:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid44.pdf
If that doesn't work it can be found by searching the site using 'GID 44' or 'guide to logbook annotation' as the search criteria. The CAA definition in GID44 of aeroplane flight time is slightly differently worded to the JAR definition, in that CAA deems that the plane is 'in flight' from the moment it moves under it's own power for the purposes of taking off. Mind you, if you hover taxi a Harrier I suppose it would be 'in flight'!!
Link to the CAA doc as follows:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid44.pdf
If that doesn't work it can be found by searching the site using 'GID 44' or 'guide to logbook annotation' as the search criteria. The CAA definition in GID44 of aeroplane flight time is slightly differently worded to the JAR definition, in that CAA deems that the plane is 'in flight' from the moment it moves under it's own power for the purposes of taking off. Mind you, if you hover taxi a Harrier I suppose it would be 'in flight'!!
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Just log it how you feel comfortable logging it !
If I fly with an instructor on a check out, I log PIC and DUAL and get it signed. I don't have a JAA 'standard' logbook but an FAA one, with no P1U/s, P1U/T, Panythingelse etc columns, and the CAA don't give two hoots.
Cheers
EA
If I fly with an instructor on a check out, I log PIC and DUAL and get it signed. I don't have a JAA 'standard' logbook but an FAA one, with no P1U/s, P1U/T, Panythingelse etc columns, and the CAA don't give two hoots.
Cheers
EA
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Thanks for the info.
It seems to be an exact copy of the JARs until you get to the testing part including the definition of flight time.
The most important part relevant to this discussion is note 4 on the last page.
So I think that with a JAR format, I will make a note "SPIC, aircraft checkout" in the remarks column and the time will go in the P1 column. With the old format, SPIC will go in the function column.
After all if there is no student, how can there be an instructor??
Remember that it is nice to log what you like. However you will eventually come across an instructor or examiner who will not sign the entry if it is not to their liking. A very big problem if it is at your renewal and you miss the deadline because some of the time was disallowed.
DFC
It seems to be an exact copy of the JARs until you get to the testing part including the definition of flight time.
The most important part relevant to this discussion is note 4 on the last page.
So I think that with a JAR format, I will make a note "SPIC, aircraft checkout" in the remarks column and the time will go in the P1 column. With the old format, SPIC will go in the function column.
After all if there is no student, how can there be an instructor??
Remember that it is nice to log what you like. However you will eventually come across an instructor or examiner who will not sign the entry if it is not to their liking. A very big problem if it is at your renewal and you miss the deadline because some of the time was disallowed.
DFC