Flying with passengers rule....

[agnewdarren]

Regarding taking passengers, I know that I have to have done 3 takeoffs and landings as sole manipulator within 90 days, if it's under P2 and the instructor hasn't touched the controls, does that mean that I was the sole manipulator?? Or does it refer to solo flight? Sorry, dumb newbie here!!!

[foxmoth]

if it's under P2

Think you mean Pu/t, no P2 for SEP in the UK, and yes the 3 landings count OK.

[agnewdarren]

Told you I was a moron!! Haha thanks for your help.

[RTN11]

Firstly why didn't you just ask your instructor rather than an anonymous board?

Secondly, yes as long as you were indeed sole manipulator of the controls, it doesn't matter who was P1.

The law is the three take off and landings in the last 90 days (touch and gos will do) but most flying clubs won't hire an aircraft to you if you haven't flown in the last 28 days.

[archbishop]

I posted a similar question a few months back. It's whether or not you were the "sole manipulator of the controls" that matters. Can be logged as p1, p.u/t or p1/s:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...assengers.html

[foxmoth]

Firstly why didn't you just ask your instructor rather than an anonymous board?

At 9:16pm I would not think his instructor would be easily available!

[BackPacker]

Can be logged as p1, p.u/t or p1/s:

Does anybody know chapter and verse about whether it can be done as SNY (supernumerary) too?

I'm thinking about the situation where your PPL mate, who is acting as PIC (so you are just a passenger) is confident and gentle enough to let you handle the controls during take-off and landing.

Technically you are the "sole manipulator of the controls" so things should count, but since you have no crew function, nothing should go in your logbook - except possibly an SNY line.

[RTN11]

Firstly why didn't you just ask your instructor rather than an anonymous board?
At 9:16pm I would not think his instructor would be easily available!

I meant at the time of the flight. Anyway, most of my students have my number, not unusual to get a random text with a question from time to time.

[Level Attitude]

Can be logged as p1, p.u/t or p1/s:

NO - You are Pu/t

You are not allowed to carry passengers because you do not have the required currency.
You cannot be P1 with someone else on board (whether under supervision or not).

For Single Crew Aircraft P1/s is only used for a successful flight test with an Examiner
(or certain flying during integrated courses).

[Rod1]

“You cannot be P1 with someone else on board (whether under supervision or not).”

What!!!

Rod1

[archbishop]

What does your operating capacity have to do with currency in terms of the 90 day rule? You could still be legal but have logged your most recent flight as p.u/t if for example it was a club check ride if you haven't flown in the last 28 days. Provided you were sole manipulator of the controls, which would have to be the case to pass the check ride, legally this could be counted.

[RTN11]

Can be logged as p1, p.u/t or p1/s:
NO - You are Pu/t

You are not allowed to carry passengers because you do not have the required currency.
You cannot be P1 with someone else on board (whether under supervision or not).

You could easily be P1 flying solo for three landings, then stop and pick up the passengers. There was no implication that you'd be carrying passengers while flying the three take off and landings that you need in order to carry passengers

[stevelup]

Eh? That's exactly what he said!

Your flight could have been logged as P1/S if it was a successful test
P/UT if you were with an instructor
P1 if you were on your own

Apart from the interesting question Backpacker posed, there's no other way of logging the flight - so I don't understand the discussion!

[RTN11]

Although you could go up with a mate and fly the 3 take off and landings, since nothing goes in the logbook you'd have a hard time proving you were current after a crash.

[VP-F__]

Does anybody know chapter and verse about whether it can be done as SNY (supernumerary) too?

I'm thinking about the situation where your PPL mate, who is acting as PIC (so you are just a passenger) is confident and gentle enough to let you handle the controls during take-off and landing.

Technically you are the "sole manipulator of the controls" so things should count, but since you have no crew function, nothing should go in your logbook - except possibly an SNY line.

Not in this example, you can either fly P1 with nobody else onboard or Pu/t with an instructor. You cannot do this with a PPL mate because while you are flying he/she is technically a passenger because he/she does not have the relevant qualifications to be otherwise.

[BackPacker]

VP, that's my point. The requirement is just to be "sole manipulator of the controls". Nowhere does it specify that you have to be a crew member of some sort, so you can manipulate the controls while being a passenger. And fulfill the requirements of the 90-day rule that way.

RTN, you can log this as SNY if you want to. The regs only specify which *must* go in the logbook, not which *may* go in the logbook. As long as you don't make false representations, so don't add it up in the "total time" column for instance.

[Andy_20]

P/UT i believe is only when you are on test (for example) and fail something. For everything else you are dual, unless you are on your own.

[BillieBob]

You are confusing P/UT and P1/US. P/UT and 'dual' are the same thing. Incidentally, of these three terms only 'dual' has any meaning under Part-FCL.

[MrAverage]

Pu/t is for any flight with an instructor during which you receive instruction of any kind, not just a failed test.
Little known fact is that, if you do your 3 with an instructor, passengers may not be carried.

[taxistaxing]

Does anybody know chapter and verse about whether it can be done as SNY (supernumerary) too?

I'm thinking about the situation where your PPL mate, who is acting as PIC (so you are just a passenger) is confident and gentle enough to let you handle the controls during take-off and landing.

I can see a few issues with this.

Firstly, assuming its an SEP (single crew), and your mate is not a flying instructor, you cannot log any time for the flight. You can obviously write whatever you want in you logbook (it's your property) but for CAA purposes, 'dual' time in a SEP means nothing. As RTN11 says you'd therefore have a hard time evidencing the flight and the landings.

Secondly (again assuming your mate is not a flying instructor) either you or he is going to be flying the aircraft from the right hand seat which presumably you have not been trained to do.

You might also run into insurance issues. In my flying club the only people allowed to fly the aircraft are group members, who have been checked out by a group instructor. If I let a mate take control there would be a very sticky situation if he bent the plane. I'd have a choice of either committing insurance fraud by pretending I was flying at the time, or admitting that he was in which case the insurance would not pay up.

The best bet if you're outside of 90 days is probably to go up with an instructor, or just bite the bullet and do three solo circuits (although the rule is there for a reason - flying is a perishable skill and currency is vital).