Flying with passengers rule....
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Originally Posted by Mr Average
Little known fact is that, if you do your 3 with an instructor, passengers may not be carried
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I disagree with VP-F et al. If I am am out of currency for the 90 day rule, but otherwise correctly licensed, it would be perfectly correct for me to fly with another pilot, who was fully current, and for him to hand over control and allow me to make three landings as sole manipulator of the controls, thus regaining my currency. He remains PIC throughout and at no time am I PIC with a passenger whilst out of currency. Him handing over control to me does not make me PIC and him a passenger - he's the captain throughout, and to pre-empt the next argument, he does not need to be an instructor to hand over control to another person. I would record such a flight in my logbook as SNY, the times would not count towards any totals but my landings would count to requalify me.
That's the way I understand it unless EASA have changed absolutely everything.
That's the way I understand it unless EASA have changed absolutely everything.
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flying is a perishable skill and currency is vital.
He was pleasantly surprised to have been able to take off, fly a circuit and land again with no physical assistance at all from the instructor.
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its rubbish you wont find a reference.
If the instructor is out on class for three landings you cant but if they are in its fine.
As for none instructors doing the bumps as pic again there is no problem either. Group insurance can detail none instructors as named check pilots for the purposes of the group only.
To be honest the named ppl check pilots that i know have way more clue about checking a pilot out than a sub 200 hour knubnut zero to hero restricted instructor.
If the instructor is out on class for three landings you cant but if they are in its fine.
As for none instructors doing the bumps as pic again there is no problem either. Group insurance can detail none instructors as named check pilots for the purposes of the group only.
To be honest the named ppl check pilots that i know have way more clue about checking a pilot out than a sub 200 hour knubnut zero to hero restricted instructor.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Nov 2012 at 13:58.
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I disagree with VP-F et al. If I am am out of currency for the 90 day rule, but otherwise correctly licensed, it would be perfectly correct for me to fly with another pilot, who was fully current, and for him to hand over control and allow me to make three landings as sole manipulator of the controls, thus regaining my currency. He remains PIC throughout and at no time am I PIC with a passenger whilst out of currency. Him handing over control to me does not make me PIC and him a passenger - he's the captain throughout, and to pre-empt the next argument, he does not need to be an instructor to hand over control to another person. I would record such a flight in my logbook as SNY, the times would not count towards any totals but my landings would count to requalify me.
That's the way I understand it unless EASA have changed absolutely everything.
That's the way I understand it unless EASA have changed absolutely everything.
It could of course be made fully legal by specifically authorising the use of a licenced pilot as well as an instructor as a passenger for regaining landing currency. Of course that would just be too helpful. I mean why take a fellow group member pilot who is fully current and familiar with the aircraft when you can take an instructor who may never have flown the type at all
Edit.
As ever Jock has summed it up far more eloquently than me above
Last edited by flybymike; 22nd Nov 2012 at 14:04.
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FBM,
The 'spirit' of the regulations is largely an irrelevance. The letter of the law, not the spirit of the law is what matters, and in fact I'm not sure that the spirit of the regulations really does oppose this. You would after all have a valid class rating and would not be acting as PIC with pax while out of landing currency. Flying with a fellow (landings current) group member is quite reasonable.
You can after all achive the same thing flying solo, and no-one is suggesting you should have to carry an instructor for that.
The 'spirit' of the regulations is largely an irrelevance. The letter of the law, not the spirit of the law is what matters, and in fact I'm not sure that the spirit of the regulations really does oppose this. You would after all have a valid class rating and would not be acting as PIC with pax while out of landing currency. Flying with a fellow (landings current) group member is quite reasonable.
You can after all achive the same thing flying solo, and no-one is suggesting you should have to carry an instructor for that.
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I would record such a flight in my logbook as SNY, the times would not count towards any totals but my landings would count to requalify me.
Are you saying that you can't count the hours as he is PIC, but you can count the landings as you are sole manipulator of the controls, even though he is still PIC and you aren't able to carry a passenger as you are out of currency?
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Come on its been going on for years and years.
Is there a huge number of crashes because of it?
no there isn't otherwise the insurance companys would ban it in policys and there would be a ANO reg saying you couldn't.
The fact that some don't like the idea is neither here nor there.
If instructors wern't up thier own backsides and realised that if you give a fun lesson which also gives value to the punter people don't mind splashing an extra twenty for your services. And using a mate is never even thought about.
Thats it robin and there is no legal problem with that.
I can be out on SEP 90 day rule as an instructor and still take a student up because they are counted as crew but couldn't take a pax in the back. its the same with night currency as well if you don't have an IR.
Is there a huge number of crashes because of it?
no there isn't otherwise the insurance companys would ban it in policys and there would be a ANO reg saying you couldn't.
The fact that some don't like the idea is neither here nor there.
If instructors wern't up thier own backsides and realised that if you give a fun lesson which also gives value to the punter people don't mind splashing an extra twenty for your services. And using a mate is never even thought about.
Thats it robin and there is no legal problem with that.
I can be out on SEP 90 day rule as an instructor and still take a student up because they are counted as crew but couldn't take a pax in the back. its the same with night currency as well if you don't have an IR.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Nov 2012 at 14:57.
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Robin. Absolutely. If you're not PIC, you cannot record the time as PIC (or anything else in a single pilot aeroplane unless you're with an instructor or examiner). The landings however do count as long as you are sole manipulator of the controls. Your operating capacity (PIC, Pu/t, etc) is not relevant and hence is not even referred to in the regs.
Flights in which I have had control, and which I wish to keep a record of, but which do not fit into the usual operating capcity categories, get logged as SNY: supernumerary crew.
SNY is defined in regulations, and would seem to apply to such circumstances, amongst others. SNY time does not count towards flying time totals - for me the time goes in one of the 'other' columns just for the record. I also have to use SNY at work on some occassions, but that's another story.
Flights in which I have had control, and which I wish to keep a record of, but which do not fit into the usual operating capcity categories, get logged as SNY: supernumerary crew.
SNY is defined in regulations, and would seem to apply to such circumstances, amongst others. SNY time does not count towards flying time totals - for me the time goes in one of the 'other' columns just for the record. I also have to use SNY at work on some occassions, but that's another story.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 22nd Nov 2012 at 15:07.
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I use SNY at work when doing line check's in the jump seat. I didn't used to log it as anything but the local flight ops inspector got his knickers in a twist about it and wanted it logged as something so I couldn't fiddle ftls or something like that. Not worth arguing about so i just do it.
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An interesting take on the rules that could have saved me inconvenience and £ss in the past and mroe importantly may do in the future. How does the law view said pilot, acting as PIC, allowing a passenger to take off and land the aircraft? Presumably if it went tits up on landing the PIC would be the responsible party albeit he was not actually doing the flying? BB
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References v debate
Thank you Mr A for providing a reference which is:
Original question on this thread was how should this flight be recorded.
Looks like Instructor P1 and Pilot Pu/t (P1/s NOT being available). But could possibly be interpreted as if the Instructor "wasn't really there ie pretend solo" and hence Pilot records P1 and Instructor records nothing.
Another quote:
So no, you cannot regain passenger carrying currency flying with "your mate" as PIC. If you are acting as a pilot then you are neither Pax nor SNY so you must be a crew member: but in single crew aircraft there is only one Pilot so you would have to be P1 which makes them a Pax (which they are not allowed to be)
Just get current solo if you are happy you are still competent, or with an Instructor if you feel you need some pointers. Anything else seems silly, and potentially litigious.
MJ:
I would agree that named PPL Check Pilots are excellent at checking the flying skills of group members. But this does pre-suppose both checker and checkee are legal (though maybe not profficient) on the aircraft.
In the "Pax Carrying Currency" context of this thread the checkee would not be legal to be P1. Even if the 3 x Take/Offs - Landings were acceptable, the Checker (as P1) would have to pay 1/2 the cost of the flight - would you do this?
AMC1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience When a pilot needs to carry out one or more flightswith an instructor or an examiner to comply with the requirement ofFCL.060(b)(1) before the pilot can carry passengers, the instructor or examineron board those flights will not be considered as a passenger.
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with therequired three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be onboard
GM1 FCL.060(b)(1) Recent experience AEROPLANES, HELICOPTERS, POWERED-LIFT, AIRSHIPS AND SAILPLANES If a pilot or a PIC is operating under the supervision of an instructor to comply with therequired three take-offs, approaches and landings, no passengers may be onboard
Looks like Instructor P1 and Pilot Pu/t (P1/s NOT being available). But could possibly be interpreted as if the Instructor "wasn't really there ie pretend solo" and hence Pilot records P1 and Instructor records nothing.
Another quote:
ANO 2012
50 (1) Subject to paragraph(2), a person must not act as a pilot of an EASA aircraft that is registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted, converted or rendered valid under the EASA AircrewRegulation.
50 (1) Subject to paragraph(2), a person must not act as a pilot of an EASA aircraft that is registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted, converted or rendered valid under the EASA AircrewRegulation.
Just get current solo if you are happy you are still competent, or with an Instructor if you feel you need some pointers. Anything else seems silly, and potentially litigious.
As for none instructors doing the bumps as pic again there is no problem either. Group insurance can detail none instructors as named check pilots for the purposes of the group only.
To be honest the named ppl check pilots that i know have way more clue about checking a pilot out than a sub 200 hour knubnut zero to hero restricted instructor.
To be honest the named ppl check pilots that i know have way more clue about checking a pilot out than a sub 200 hour knubnut zero to hero restricted instructor.
I would agree that named PPL Check Pilots are excellent at checking the flying skills of group members. But this does pre-suppose both checker and checkee are legal (though maybe not profficient) on the aircraft.
In the "Pax Carrying Currency" context of this thread the checkee would not be legal to be P1. Even if the 3 x Take/Offs - Landings were acceptable, the Checker (as P1) would have to pay 1/2 the cost of the flight - would you do this?
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Reference your ANO2012 quote, you do of course hold a valid licence, and a valid class rating so you are fully entitled to act as a pilot. Being out of currency for the 90 day rule does not invalidate your licence.
Furthermore, being PIC means taking final responsibilty for the operation of an aircraft. It does not mean doing everything yourself at all times. Being PIC does not stop by handing over control. 50% of the time an airline captain is PIC without having personal hands-on control of the aircraft.
Furthermore, being PIC means taking final responsibilty for the operation of an aircraft. It does not mean doing everything yourself at all times. Being PIC does not stop by handing over control. 50% of the time an airline captain is PIC without having personal hands-on control of the aircraft.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 22nd Nov 2012 at 19:32.
you do of course hold a valid licence, and a valid class rating so you are fully entitled to act as a pilot.
Being PIC does not stop by handing over control.
50% of the time an airline captain is PIC without having personal hands-on control of the aircraft.
The only options have been stated quite clearly at the beginning of this thread.
I disagree with VP-F et al. If I am am out of currency for the 90 day rule, but otherwise correctly licensed, it would be perfectly correct for me to fly with another pilot, who was fully current, and for him to hand over control and allow me to make three landings as sole manipulator of the controls, thus regaining my currency. He remains PIC throughout and at no time am I PIC with a passenger whilst out of currency. Him handing over control to me does not make me PIC and him a passenger - he's the captain throughout, and to pre-empt the next argument, he does not need to be an instructor to hand over control to another person. I would record such a flight in my logbook as SNY, the times would not count towards any totals but my landings would count to requalify me.
I can be out on SEP 90 day rule as an instructor and still take a student up because they are counted as crew but couldn't take a pax in the back. its the same with night currency as well if you don't have an IR.
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If the person is a student and you are flying under the umbrella of a lesson the student is classed as crew not pax.
And if I was the checker no I wouldn't.
But then we are into the territory of shifting a plane for a mate and not paying anything. Which is fine for us commercial holders but very grey for a ppl.
And if I was the checker no I wouldn't.
But then we are into the territory of shifting a plane for a mate and not paying anything. Which is fine for us commercial holders but very grey for a ppl.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Nov 2012 at 20:15.
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Only if the other pilot is an examiner or instructor valid on type/class
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Originally Posted by Torque Tonight
Being PIC does not stop by handing over control.
Originally Posted by Torque Tonight
Being out of 90 day currency whilst having valid licences and ratings does not prevent you from acting as pilot.
BB
Last edited by BabyBear; 22nd Nov 2012 at 20:20.