UK to Australia by PA28
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UK to Australia by PA28
I may have a once in a lifetime window of opportunity to fly myself home from UK to Australia in my own aircraft, a PA28 Cherokee C.
Maybe a crazy idea, but I know it can be done ref. Poly Vacher's epic round-the-world flights in her Dakota. And guys like this who've done it in Microlights: The Route
So I am looking to get in touch with people who have done it, can advise on things like ferry tanks, etc
Andy
Maybe a crazy idea, but I know it can be done ref. Poly Vacher's epic round-the-world flights in her Dakota. And guys like this who've done it in Microlights: The Route
So I am looking to get in touch with people who have done it, can advise on things like ferry tanks, etc
Andy
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If the chance is a real one and you have the confidence I'd go for it. I have regrets over things I didn't do when I had the opportunity so I'll always advise people to follow their dreams.
If you think of the trip as a number of smaller trips all joined together it might not seem so daunting.
Also we get the vicarious pleasure of following your blog along the way
SGC
If you think of the trip as a number of smaller trips all joined together it might not seem so daunting.
Also we get the vicarious pleasure of following your blog along the way
SGC
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Does it have a MOGAS STC? That helps when you need finding fuel if AvGas is unavailable. Take some (empty) jerrycans and a fuel tester with you so you can check for the alcohol %.
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You might get something useful from this site:
Earthrounders: round the world flights in light aircraft
Earthrounders: round the world flights in light aircraft
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Have a look at the book called ''chasing the morning sun''. it is about a guy who flew his Vans RV6 around the world. Also look on the Vans uk web site for more about him. I think he may be based near Gloucester.
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Thanks everyone! Loads of useful info here, plus offline I've been put in touch with some people who've done it... will research a while and then check the size of my balls...!
Andy :-)
Andy :-)
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and then check the size of my balls...!
Good luck. Such a trip is high on my wish-list too, but my wallet is simply too thin for it. But I would definitely want to do it in a plane that's cleared for Mogas (a two-seater with a Rotax 912S up front would do nicely) or has a Thielert/Centurion/SME or other type of diesel/Jet-A engine.
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I believe from UK to Aus the overflight permits, landing fees and official bribes run to the order of £20,000 thats before you've spent a penny on flying. Also fuel is indeed the biggest problem, for inspiration read Dave Sykes account of flying there in a microlight with his wheelchair fitted to his flexwing microlight. I had tears in my eyes reading his blog daily during the flight, and bought his book and chatted to him at the LAA rally.
But do it anyway, you only regret the things you don't do, rarely regret those you do.
I am saving up for a round the world flight in 2015, but will be using JetA to get around the fuel problems.
But do it anyway, you only regret the things you don't do, rarely regret those you do.
I am saving up for a round the world flight in 2015, but will be using JetA to get around the fuel problems.
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Yes Avgas is increasingly hard to get - read on earth rounders that they no longer have it in Ahmedabad.
We're I'm at so far is:
- lots of people have said I need an IR a) because there are some areas where you can't file VFR (really?) and b) in 10,000NM you're likely to encounter a *real* need to exercise the privileges of the IR to approach in ****e weather at least once. My gut is that b) can be managed at the expense of delays to play extra safe with weather and only fly on days when confidence is very high at both ends (at the expense of probably exorbitant parking fees) but I don't know enough yet about a). I presume the chap in the microlight did it VFR? My understanding is I'd need to find 12weeks @ 3hrs/day to study the PPL(IR) and 50hrs in the air for a bloody JAR IR... That or get an FAA IR (4wks?) but my aeroplane is G-reg so that doesn't fly (pun intended...).... or move the aeroplane to the N-reg, sounds like a can of worms...
- if the trip can only realistically be done with an IR aboard, then I imagine I could find a young person with a CPL(IR) to accompany me in return for a great experience... BUT this would detract from the fuel load I can carry and hence the range... Still that might be the answer, but brings us back to the increasingly hard-to-find airports-with-AVGAS problem :-(
- on top of which, there is the problem of of getting a ferry tank fitted. If my aeroplane was N-reg then this would not be a problem apparently, but under EASA regulations I gather its a bit of a balls to get a ferry tank fitted legally / certified as this is a mod to the aircraft. I am making enquiries with Far Nirth Aviation in Wick to learn more.
- overflight permits etc I am told are best organised by an agency, who can also assist with things like weather forecasts in remote locations ... I am yet to find out what this will cost.
I could go on, but right now it's looking a bit difficult :-(
We're I'm at so far is:
- lots of people have said I need an IR a) because there are some areas where you can't file VFR (really?) and b) in 10,000NM you're likely to encounter a *real* need to exercise the privileges of the IR to approach in ****e weather at least once. My gut is that b) can be managed at the expense of delays to play extra safe with weather and only fly on days when confidence is very high at both ends (at the expense of probably exorbitant parking fees) but I don't know enough yet about a). I presume the chap in the microlight did it VFR? My understanding is I'd need to find 12weeks @ 3hrs/day to study the PPL(IR) and 50hrs in the air for a bloody JAR IR... That or get an FAA IR (4wks?) but my aeroplane is G-reg so that doesn't fly (pun intended...).... or move the aeroplane to the N-reg, sounds like a can of worms...
- if the trip can only realistically be done with an IR aboard, then I imagine I could find a young person with a CPL(IR) to accompany me in return for a great experience... BUT this would detract from the fuel load I can carry and hence the range... Still that might be the answer, but brings us back to the increasingly hard-to-find airports-with-AVGAS problem :-(
- on top of which, there is the problem of of getting a ferry tank fitted. If my aeroplane was N-reg then this would not be a problem apparently, but under EASA regulations I gather its a bit of a balls to get a ferry tank fitted legally / certified as this is a mod to the aircraft. I am making enquiries with Far Nirth Aviation in Wick to learn more.
- overflight permits etc I am told are best organised by an agency, who can also assist with things like weather forecasts in remote locations ... I am yet to find out what this will cost.
I could go on, but right now it's looking a bit difficult :-(
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 22nd Nov 2012 at 21:02.
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My gut is that b) can be managed at the expense of delays to play extra safe with weather and only fly on days when confidence is very high at both ends (at the expense of probably exorbitant parking fees)
I don't know the details about it, but I do know that that weather phenomenon is entirely different to the weather we get here. Over here in Western Europe, there's a depression every 3-10 days bringing bad weather, with very flyable days in between. So worst case is that you could be stuck here in Western Europe for a few days because of weather. Over there you might be stuck for weeks, if not months, because the weather is far more stable. Stable bad, that is.
Although obviously the trip should be doable VFR (loads of people have done it), having an IR (or at least the experience equivalent to an IR, or an actual IR that's technically not legal because the first letter of your callsign happens to be the wrong one) could be very, very handy.
Another tip that might just be useful in extreme cases: There are companies that can arrange for drums of avgas to be delivered around the globe at a place of your choosing. It'll be very expensive and you will need to find a handling agent to receive and store them for you, but it might just be the only way to get avgas in certain places. There's at least one of them advertising in Flyer magazine.
Andi,
I'll join the "go for it" crowd, it is feasible and while your initial research may well sound extremely complex (which it is) and impossible (which it's not), you will find as you go along that many obstacles can be overcome if you talk to people who actually know what they are doing from having been there and done it.
If this is the airplane I think of, a Cherokee 180 C, it would mean you have a 50 USG Avgas fuel capacity, 180 hp, 110 kts TAS @ 9 gph, which means about 500 NM range plus reserves. That is indeed a very limiting factor as there are legs which are considerably longer than that, particularly with the situation in the Mid East and later on between Asia and Australia. On the other hand, the PA28-180 is quite a load carrier, which should allow for two people to do the trip plus full tanks plus some. If I look at the turtleneck tanks I think you could probably carry a "Big Buddy" which holds 18 USG and weighs a mere 8 kg, total around 60 kg. That should leave plenty for 2 normal folks and baggage if you want to do this with a 2nd pilot yet it would get you 2 additional flight hours and therefore a range of around 750 NM between AVGAS stops @ 65% or 800 NM @ 55%, with a reserve of 45 Minutes. However, it also means you'd look at legs of 7-8 hours. If there is more weight available, you might carry even more fuel, but then legs get really long. Ideally, 1100 NM would be a range I'd be more comfortable with on this trip. However, that means a fuel capacity of around 90-100 USG and therefore you'd end up a single seater. A Cherokee is definitly not built for this kind of long haul flying.
How to go about installing turtlenecks or other ferry tanks you should investigate with your CAA and/or a maintenance organisation who's done it before.
So the first order of business would have to be to find out if there is a route which would allow legs of the length. Equally, if there is a possibility for a MOGAS STC, which does exist for the PA28-140, but I am not sure about the -180. If so, your options grow as Mogas may well be available where AVGAS is not.
Again, talk to pilots who've done it. They can give you indications how to proceed or not. Possibly one of them might be willing to go with you, which would give you a huge learning experience.
Permissions, yes, get an agency, a good one. They can help and they will.
IR, yes. I personally would not start a trip like that without one even though people have done it and it probably can be done.
Keep the dream alive but do a good and thorough reality check. You may well find that the Cherokee is simply too slow and too short legged to do it, or you may find how to do the trip with 500-800 NM legs and additional tanks.
You might want to look at this one:
Route
pretty much the route you would be flying. Also, Arnim is someone you might want to talk to
I'll join the "go for it" crowd, it is feasible and while your initial research may well sound extremely complex (which it is) and impossible (which it's not), you will find as you go along that many obstacles can be overcome if you talk to people who actually know what they are doing from having been there and done it.
If this is the airplane I think of, a Cherokee 180 C, it would mean you have a 50 USG Avgas fuel capacity, 180 hp, 110 kts TAS @ 9 gph, which means about 500 NM range plus reserves. That is indeed a very limiting factor as there are legs which are considerably longer than that, particularly with the situation in the Mid East and later on between Asia and Australia. On the other hand, the PA28-180 is quite a load carrier, which should allow for two people to do the trip plus full tanks plus some. If I look at the turtleneck tanks I think you could probably carry a "Big Buddy" which holds 18 USG and weighs a mere 8 kg, total around 60 kg. That should leave plenty for 2 normal folks and baggage if you want to do this with a 2nd pilot yet it would get you 2 additional flight hours and therefore a range of around 750 NM between AVGAS stops @ 65% or 800 NM @ 55%, with a reserve of 45 Minutes. However, it also means you'd look at legs of 7-8 hours. If there is more weight available, you might carry even more fuel, but then legs get really long. Ideally, 1100 NM would be a range I'd be more comfortable with on this trip. However, that means a fuel capacity of around 90-100 USG and therefore you'd end up a single seater. A Cherokee is definitly not built for this kind of long haul flying.
How to go about installing turtlenecks or other ferry tanks you should investigate with your CAA and/or a maintenance organisation who's done it before.
So the first order of business would have to be to find out if there is a route which would allow legs of the length. Equally, if there is a possibility for a MOGAS STC, which does exist for the PA28-140, but I am not sure about the -180. If so, your options grow as Mogas may well be available where AVGAS is not.
Again, talk to pilots who've done it. They can give you indications how to proceed or not. Possibly one of them might be willing to go with you, which would give you a huge learning experience.
Permissions, yes, get an agency, a good one. They can help and they will.
IR, yes. I personally would not start a trip like that without one even though people have done it and it probably can be done.
Keep the dream alive but do a good and thorough reality check. You may well find that the Cherokee is simply too slow and too short legged to do it, or you may find how to do the trip with 500-800 NM legs and additional tanks.
You might want to look at this one:
Route
pretty much the route you would be flying. Also, Arnim is someone you might want to talk to
Last edited by AN2 Driver; 23rd Nov 2012 at 04:36.
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Andi, first of all - go for it! You'll kick your backside for the rest of our life if you didn't try....
I think your biggest problem will be Avgas. With a PA28-180 w/o ferry tank, prepositioning drums is pretty much your only option (other than Mogas, of course). This may or may not be a budget-buster, cheap it won't be.
As for the IR: to the best of my knowledge, Saudi Arabia is the only country along your probable route that does not allow VFR flight. One way around that could be to get an IR rated pilot to fly that leg for you.
On the capability side - the airplane doesn't know if your IR is FAA or EASA, as long as YOU know what you are doing.
Talk to as many people as you can who have done it and perhaps also post in the Oz and SE Asia section on Pprune - you'll probably get better info re wx and local quirks there than on this forum, which is largely European.
Good luck and keep us posted!
I think your biggest problem will be Avgas. With a PA28-180 w/o ferry tank, prepositioning drums is pretty much your only option (other than Mogas, of course). This may or may not be a budget-buster, cheap it won't be.
As for the IR: to the best of my knowledge, Saudi Arabia is the only country along your probable route that does not allow VFR flight. One way around that could be to get an IR rated pilot to fly that leg for you.
On the capability side - the airplane doesn't know if your IR is FAA or EASA, as long as YOU know what you are doing.
Talk to as many people as you can who have done it and perhaps also post in the Oz and SE Asia section on Pprune - you'll probably get better info re wx and local quirks there than on this forum, which is largely European.
Good luck and keep us posted!
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Treat yourself to a first class return ticket , save a fortune ,a huge amount of hassle and avoid a lot of risk.Spend the surplus on pleasureable flying at your leisure not making bureaucrats and corrupt officials rich.VBR Stampe
Go for it.
Three things to manage:
Have a great trip - it's still on my list!
Sam.
Three things to manage:
- Avgas
- Getting yourself competent (safe) for IMC flight - legal or not is up to you
- Avgas!
Have a great trip - it's still on my list!
Sam.
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Thanks everyone!
OK, making progress... one by one, ways around some of the challenges are starting to come into focus. Just had a long chat with a mate of mine in Australia who has done three US -> Australia via Europe ferry flights in Avgas'd aeroplanes and he had LOTS of practical suggestions. (His day job is flying A380s along similar routes, but much higher...)
I need to spend this weekend with an Excel spreadsheet, the W&B and performance data along with the great circle mapper (Great Circle Mapper) to work out leg by leg what might be achievable, and start estimating the costs which will include IMC / EIR / Night Rating refreshers, buying an HF radio, an EGT gauge, a fuel flow meter etc. and getting a ferry tank fitted, and get some quotes from overflight agents.
Then the really hard part: explaining all this, and the costs, to my wife! Come to think of it, I'll also need to have my life insurance topped up.... ... .. .!
Andy :-)
I need to spend this weekend with an Excel spreadsheet, the W&B and performance data along with the great circle mapper (Great Circle Mapper) to work out leg by leg what might be achievable, and start estimating the costs which will include IMC / EIR / Night Rating refreshers, buying an HF radio, an EGT gauge, a fuel flow meter etc. and getting a ferry tank fitted, and get some quotes from overflight agents.
Then the really hard part: explaining all this, and the costs, to my wife! Come to think of it, I'll also need to have my life insurance topped up.... ... .. .!
Andy :-)
Treat yourself to a first class return ticket , save a fortune ,a huge amount of hassle and avoid a lot of risk.Spend the surplus on pleasureable flying at your leisure not making bureaucrats and corrupt officials rich.VBR Stampe