What to do if someone flies dangerously?
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What to do if someone flies dangerously?
So, this question came to me last week. I live just south of the northern boundary of the London CTR/TMA, and when I say just south, I mean a few hundred yards.
I know this for several reasons, including the fact that when I first started learning to fly and did a trial lesson, my instructor flew me down to the M1/A1/A41 junction to do an 'I can see my house from here' but was very clear at pointing out the boundaries (roads and pubs I knew well).
So, last Saturday, my wife says 'what's that?' and I look up to see a flexwing microlight doing circles around the Middlesex uni grounds. They are inside the CTR. Moreover, this flexwing could only have been a few hundred feet up, I certainly doubt 500.
So, it has flown within the boundary of CTR, it has flown within 500 ft of people/buildings etc, and has flown over a heavily populated urban area with no space or height to do a forced landing if needed.
In such a case, do you just ignore it, get annoyed because it gives other microlighters a bad name, or do you take the registration and report it, and if so, to whom?
What would you suggest?
Ipz
I know this for several reasons, including the fact that when I first started learning to fly and did a trial lesson, my instructor flew me down to the M1/A1/A41 junction to do an 'I can see my house from here' but was very clear at pointing out the boundaries (roads and pubs I knew well).
So, last Saturday, my wife says 'what's that?' and I look up to see a flexwing microlight doing circles around the Middlesex uni grounds. They are inside the CTR. Moreover, this flexwing could only have been a few hundred feet up, I certainly doubt 500.
So, it has flown within the boundary of CTR, it has flown within 500 ft of people/buildings etc, and has flown over a heavily populated urban area with no space or height to do a forced landing if needed.
In such a case, do you just ignore it, get annoyed because it gives other microlighters a bad name, or do you take the registration and report it, and if so, to whom?
What would you suggest?
Ipz
Last edited by IanPZ; 10th Oct 2012 at 18:12.
I was flying in the CTR last Saturday (rotary) and Heathrow asked me if I could see this aircraft, which had already been identified as an infringer. I'm not one to habitually squeal on fellow aviators, however, I am keen to ensure that my fellow aviators don't endanger the lives of themselves or others, for whatever reason. If the individual was clearly and wilfully flying dangerously and I had the opportunity to 'have a quiet word' later, then I would, but if that was impossible, I wouldn't hesitate to report them. On this occasion, I didn't see the aircraft anyway.
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Spandex, dangerous or illegal...hmm. Well, first.y, I am no authority at all, given I am yet to pass my test. It was certainly illegal unless permission was given, as it was in the CTR. As for dangerous, well, I would have thought flying at a few hundred feet up where the only option if the engine dies is to crash into houses, well I would say that is dangerous.
Meldex, no, I don't do that. However, I do ride a motorbike, and if another rider did something ridiculously risky or stupid, I would have a word, at the very least. It reflects badly on a relatively small community, otherwise.
Toptobottom, thanks for that...I have an idea where it will have flown from, and will drop a few hints about it. Quiet word does seem a good idea, if possible.
Ta
Ipz
Meldex, no, I don't do that. However, I do ride a motorbike, and if another rider did something ridiculously risky or stupid, I would have a word, at the very least. It reflects badly on a relatively small community, otherwise.
Toptobottom, thanks for that...I have an idea where it will have flown from, and will drop a few hints about it. Quiet word does seem a good idea, if possible.
Ta
Ipz
Ian
I've just had a quick look at the Middx Uni site and if it's the one below (4.5Nm west of the King George/William Girling reservoirs), I've two points.
First, there seems to be plenty of space to land in the event of a forced landing and second, this is about 1.5Nm north of the CTR boundary
I've just had a quick look at the Middx Uni site and if it's the one below (4.5Nm west of the King George/William Girling reservoirs), I've two points.
First, there seems to be plenty of space to land in the event of a forced landing and second, this is about 1.5Nm north of the CTR boundary
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Ianpz
So you haven't passed your test but you can judge altitude accurately from the street, and how do you know it didn't have a clearance ?
So you haven't passed your test but you can judge altitude accurately from the street, and how do you know it didn't have a clearance ?
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:44.
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How accurate was your instructor in the first place pointing out the visual cues to the boundary of the CTR? He might have used a generous safety buffer (he was dealing with a student after all), and the microlight may just have used a less generous buffer.
I have, on occasion, had to operate very close (as in < 1 nm) to a CTR, to which I had no permission to enter (not asked since not needed). No problem if you prepare things properly, and use GPS and/or DME as appropriate. In my case I was also in contact with ATC who knew my intentions.
Furthermore, height is notoriously hard to judge, and 500 feet is not a lot. Without evidence such as transponder readouts, or another aircraft operating at the same height, it will be next to impossible to know/prove he was below 500 feet. And even then, there are various exceptions to the 500 foot rule, one of which may just apply to him.
I have, on occasion, had to operate very close (as in < 1 nm) to a CTR, to which I had no permission to enter (not asked since not needed). No problem if you prepare things properly, and use GPS and/or DME as appropriate. In my case I was also in contact with ATC who knew my intentions.
Furthermore, height is notoriously hard to judge, and 500 feet is not a lot. Without evidence such as transponder readouts, or another aircraft operating at the same height, it will be next to impossible to know/prove he was below 500 feet. And even then, there are various exceptions to the 500 foot rule, one of which may just apply to him.
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Toptobottom, you need to search for five ways corner, or mill hill. Middlesex uni is quite spread out, and yes, that bit is outside the CTR, but look for mill hill and you'll find the bit I am talking about. As for space to land, well, the only gaps are copthall playing fields, but are surrounded by tall trees and on a Saturday, usually covered with kids flying kites and playing golf.
Abovetheclouds...I was asking the question, exactly because I am still learning. That said, many ways to judge height, and I find it hard to believe that the only accurate way is to be a pilot. Given some of the surrounding cranes etc, I am guessing he/she was around 400 ft up at most.As for clearance, I was going on what I have been told about CTR clearances and it seemed unlikely someone would get clearance in a microlight, during the day, to just fly around on the edge of the CTR. Seems from other comments there was no clearance.
Abovetheclouds...I was asking the question, exactly because I am still learning. That said, many ways to judge height, and I find it hard to believe that the only accurate way is to be a pilot. Given some of the surrounding cranes etc, I am guessing he/she was around 400 ft up at most.As for clearance, I was going on what I have been told about CTR clearances and it seemed unlikely someone would get clearance in a microlight, during the day, to just fly around on the edge of the CTR. Seems from other comments there was no clearance.
Last edited by IanPZ; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:54.
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Given some of the surrounding cranes etc, I am guessing he/she was around 400 ft up
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As for clearance, I was going on what I have been told about CTR clearances and it seemed unlikely someone would get clearance in a microlight, during the day, to just fly around on the edge of the CTR.
The only thing that could possibly make the difference between a regular fixed wing and a microlight in getting access to a CTR would be that some flexwing microlights (not all) seem to have a dicey radio setup. At low level and at the edge of the CTR that might make the difference to ATC.
Furthermore, amongst microlight pilots there seems to be a larger proportion of pilots who are not really all that proficient on the radio, compared to regular fixed wing. Of course there is no indication whatsoever that that is the case here, but if you want to do airwork inside a CTR your R/T better be up to it.
But assuming your radio setup is OK, your R/T is up to scratch and your intentions are not causing a nuisance (or worse) to other traffic in the CTR, I don't see why a microlight should be refused access where a normal fixed wing would be allowed.
OK, the first site I looked at was actually 2.5Nm north of the CTR and about 1.5Nm north of the CTA. I've had another look and the Copthall playing fields are due west of the Banbury reservoir VRP, the centre of which happens to be at the same latitude as the top of the Heathrow CTR. There seem to be a lot of open fields that could be used in the event of an engine failure.
I reckon matey was probably flying outside the CTR, but obviously very close - unnecessarily close, particularly if he was just hooning around.
Regarding 'imminent danger' and the 500' rule, I agree that it isn't necessarily dangerous to fly closer than 500' to any person, vehicle, vessel, etc. but that doesn't mean it's OK to do it. I also agree it's difficult to accurately gauge the height of an aircraft flying at between, say, 400' and 600', but it's easy to gauge when it's flying at 200'...
I reckon matey was probably flying outside the CTR, but obviously very close - unnecessarily close, particularly if he was just hooning around.
Regarding 'imminent danger' and the 500' rule, I agree that it isn't necessarily dangerous to fly closer than 500' to any person, vehicle, vessel, etc. but that doesn't mean it's OK to do it. I also agree it's difficult to accurately gauge the height of an aircraft flying at between, say, 400' and 600', but it's easy to gauge when it's flying at 200'...
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so pick up the telephone and call the CAA (that's your British FAA isn' t it?)
ask to speak to an inspector, and explain what you just told us here.
as far as judging 500'...wellllll, I think you would be pretty close to anything under 1000', beyond that gets tough.
the guy should be reported and let the British officials do what they want. I reported a guy for taking an IFR clearance in the USA>..only trouble was he didn't have an instrument rating. FAA called him up , bought him lunch and told him not to do it again.
some guy on the forum said , ''do you write down the registration of autos that drive too fast?)...well, if they were doing it near a school full of kids, I would sure do it.
you asked...you should report him...and that's that.
I reported another guy, banner towing super cub below min safe altitude over San Francisco...next day he crashed on a city street.
yup...stuff happens...dn't let it happen to you
ask to speak to an inspector, and explain what you just told us here.
as far as judging 500'...wellllll, I think you would be pretty close to anything under 1000', beyond that gets tough.
the guy should be reported and let the British officials do what they want. I reported a guy for taking an IFR clearance in the USA>..only trouble was he didn't have an instrument rating. FAA called him up , bought him lunch and told him not to do it again.
some guy on the forum said , ''do you write down the registration of autos that drive too fast?)...well, if they were doing it near a school full of kids, I would sure do it.
you asked...you should report him...and that's that.
I reported another guy, banner towing super cub below min safe altitude over San Francisco...next day he crashed on a city street.
yup...stuff happens...dn't let it happen to you
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I'll have to check, but isn't there a restriction of a min of 1000' over congested areas, esp given the lack of glide performance of microlights and others. In that area I'd be surprised to see the 500' rule applied
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Toptobottom - thanks for the info and clarification, I'm aware of the 'glide clear' rule in the UK. FWIW, in my area they'd have to close every local airport and shut down literally thousands of single engined flights per day if it were the case.
You're essentially just not supposed to cruise over congested areas (which includes playing fields, btw) at heights which mean you can't glide clear - this isn't difficult, you go up or you go round. Given a choice, you wouldn't want to land on houses anyway would you?
The glide clear rule exists in the US as well; the exemption from low flying rules for the purposes of taking off & landing exist in the UK as well.
The low flying rules exist not just to protect us from aircraft falling on our heads but also to protect us from inconsiderate show-offs disturbing the peace. If he was pi$$ing me off I would happily report him. If you think he was annoying someone else - let someone else report him.
The low flying rules exist not just to protect us from aircraft falling on our heads but also to protect us from inconsiderate show-offs disturbing the peace. If he was pi$$ing me off I would happily report him. If you think he was annoying someone else - let someone else report him.
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The relevant bit of*rule 5 states that*a pilot must not fly below a height:-
** a)*which would enable him*to land clear of the*area in the event of engine failure, or
** b) less than 1,000 ft above the highest fixed obect within 600m.
whichever is the higher.
** a)*which would enable him*to land clear of the*area in the event of engine failure, or
** b) less than 1,000 ft above the highest fixed obect within 600m.
whichever is the higher.