Cirrus SR22 Chute Pull - (Post landing Video) Birmingham Alabama 6th Oct 2012
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Pace,
Your post reads to me as if you are trying to disagree with me (and I appreciate that tone is difficult to read on a forum).
But I haven't disputed anything you say in your last post, and indeed wouldn't because I agree with it entirely.
The only point I'm trying to make is that I think the role of the chute is over stated in this incident. I can't see a VFR pilot chosing to do an IFR approach based on having a chute available.
If someone tried to make the argument that having fancy automatiion would encourage them then I could see the point.
I accept fully that a chute can change risk assessment in other areas, but find it difficult to believe it would encourage a VFR only pilot to do an instrument approach.
Your post reads to me as if you are trying to disagree with me (and I appreciate that tone is difficult to read on a forum).
But I haven't disputed anything you say in your last post, and indeed wouldn't because I agree with it entirely.
The only point I'm trying to make is that I think the role of the chute is over stated in this incident. I can't see a VFR pilot chosing to do an IFR approach based on having a chute available.
If someone tried to make the argument that having fancy automatiion would encourage them then I could see the point.
I accept fully that a chute can change risk assessment in other areas, but find it difficult to believe it would encourage a VFR only pilot to do an instrument approach.
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I accept fully that a chute can change risk assessment in other areas, but find it difficult to believe it would encourage a VFR only pilot to do an instrument approach.
Well I may disagree with that. The issue appears to be that the chute mentality encourages individuals to give it a go. Whether it be flying at night, whether it be an IMC approach, there would appear to be an indication that some individuals see the chute as 'life saver' in any event. This regardless of their capabilities/ratings.
I think there is a study on this somewhere. I will try and find it.
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I think there is a study on this somewhere. I will try and find it.
Plenty of Pilots are killed for bad decision making in planes with or without BRS and the situation the author quotes is one of those.
The sad thing about the BRS in a Cirrus is that the vast majority of fatal's occur with a perfectly good chute intact, the pilot simply is not trained in its use, forgets to use it or leaves it to late.
What ever the guys error in this particular situation he did what he was trained to do, at a critical time and likely saved his life and that of his innocent passenger.
It sounds like Pilot Error.
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The interviewer made a comment at the end that two blocks away there was an area full of kids skate boarding obviously implying that it was lucky they came down where they did.
The implications are that pulling the chute over built up areas may one day bring about an aircraft landing under the chute on top of people or cars and the bad press that will bring the chute.
The implications are that pulling the chute over built up areas may one day bring about an aircraft landing under the chute on top of people or cars and the bad press that will bring the chute.
The alternative in this Alabama case was I assume without a chute pull he would have impacted the ground / property / kids school or whatever at a very high speed and inertia with probable fire on impact.
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I couldn't work out...was this guy actually IR rated or not?
From what I can see a Florida Based aircraft which might suggest not often flying in Actual IMC.
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I have formed the theory that the Cirrus is no different to any other sort of aeroplane, but we hear more about the Cirrus because the pilot pulls the chute and survives to tell the tail.
In your typical spam can, the pilot either gets out of it by the skin of his teeth, lives, and no one hears about it (other than in the pub) or dies in spectacular fashion. I can remember many PA28's being involved in VMC into IMC type accidents but when these happen everyone goes "my condolences", "we shouldn't speculate", "Wait for the AAIB report" and 2 years on we have forgotten about it.
Maybe if this chap didn't have a chute he would have got away with it and no more would have been said, or he would have died. As he had the third option of the chute, which makes the chance of survival higher, then he pulls it and it makes the news.
In your typical spam can, the pilot either gets out of it by the skin of his teeth, lives, and no one hears about it (other than in the pub) or dies in spectacular fashion. I can remember many PA28's being involved in VMC into IMC type accidents but when these happen everyone goes "my condolences", "we shouldn't speculate", "Wait for the AAIB report" and 2 years on we have forgotten about it.
Maybe if this chap didn't have a chute he would have got away with it and no more would have been said, or he would have died. As he had the third option of the chute, which makes the chance of survival higher, then he pulls it and it makes the news.
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Hard to speculate on the psychology of the Cirrus 'chute not being a psychologist but I think Pace has probably hit the nail on the head with his 'more Cirrus accidents, more pilots walk away' comment.
So you have to say that if the Cirrus didn't have a 'chute then there would be less Cirrus accidents for pilots to walk away from.
It would be interesting to look back on say the last five years GA accidents in the UK and say which ones would have had a better outcome if there was a 'chute available.
So you have to say that if the Cirrus didn't have a 'chute then there would be less Cirrus accidents for pilots to walk away from.
It would be interesting to look back on say the last five years GA accidents in the UK and say which ones would have had a better outcome if there was a 'chute available.
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Pace - you have identified the point I thought the discussion would have explored.
The Cirrus has a very effective autopilot. There was no suggestion it had malfunctioned.
I don't know how much time the pilot had in a Cirrus, or indeed any aircraft with an equivalent autopilot. However for anyone in this situation that has had a half acceptable level of training on the aircraft I would have expected the pilot to have engaged the autopilot in heading mode, followed immediately by a climb to recover VMC on autopilot. Set the bug, vs and hit the buttons and up she goes. Now I havent looked up the airport and have no idea whether there were any immediate terrain concerns given that I think he was at 1,000 feet. Maybe others might feel it was already too late to engage the autopilot, hence my comment earlier - at what point do you bail out.
Was it indicative of a lack of planning before commencing the approach. Should he have made a proper study of the sectional and know what terrain concerns there might be?
Food for thought.
The Cirrus has a very effective autopilot. There was no suggestion it had malfunctioned.
I don't know how much time the pilot had in a Cirrus, or indeed any aircraft with an equivalent autopilot. However for anyone in this situation that has had a half acceptable level of training on the aircraft I would have expected the pilot to have engaged the autopilot in heading mode, followed immediately by a climb to recover VMC on autopilot. Set the bug, vs and hit the buttons and up she goes. Now I havent looked up the airport and have no idea whether there were any immediate terrain concerns given that I think he was at 1,000 feet. Maybe others might feel it was already too late to engage the autopilot, hence my comment earlier - at what point do you bail out.
Was it indicative of a lack of planning before commencing the approach. Should he have made a proper study of the sectional and know what terrain concerns there might be?
Food for thought.
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Fuji
There is no doubt the chute saves lives as is well demonstrated in this event.
I am sold on the virtues of the chute so you do not need to convince me
I am not sold on some of the virtues of the pilots and in this case I am stunned the guy was IR rated.
Without any shadow of doubt the chute will encourage pilots into areas they cannot cope with!
As stated I do not like flying singles at night but I am sure I would be happy doing so in the Cirrus as the chute would give me an out!
On an ink black night you have no outs only the hope that what lies below is suitable to land on in the event of an engine failure.
I do not fly without outs as that is a game of Russian Roulette. The Cirrus would give me that out at night and hence I would fly at night! Would flying at night increase my chances of an accident? probably yes.
The same goes with weather or icing would the chute encourage me to press on looking for better weather ahead knowing that if ahead was a hell hole I had the option of an out? probably yes!
Would your non flying PAX be relieved if you briefed them on the use of the chute should you suffer a heart attack or stroke.
Of course they would! Why??? Because again it gives them an out if you blacked out at the controls and they were faced with death themselves.
So we are kidding ourselves if we think the chute will not make pilots more confident and will not encourage them to stray into conditions caution would normally keep them clear of!
That is something that we need to be aware of not something which rubbishes the chute.
This is the first production aircraft to come equipt with an in built chute system!
As it appears to be very efficient there are a whole new areas of operation where we need to consider the use of the chute like an engine failure.
Conventional aircraft the decision is clear you have to keep the aircraft flying to the ground and you have to be accurate! The chute brings in a new option a new "out"
With more options come more decisions! With more decisions the option to make the wrong decision! same as the extra engine in a twin.
The chute should not be used at the first sign of trouble but as a last resort after conventional solutions are considered too risky!
That is where new training should be in making pilots better equipt at making judgments quickly and acting on them and being aware of being lulled into a false sense of security that having a chute gives.
At present there seems to be little manufacturer guidance!!! hence the subject of the Cirrus and its chute will generate discussion and debate as well as a certain amount of controversy!
Pace
There is no doubt the chute saves lives as is well demonstrated in this event.
I am sold on the virtues of the chute so you do not need to convince me
I am not sold on some of the virtues of the pilots and in this case I am stunned the guy was IR rated.
Without any shadow of doubt the chute will encourage pilots into areas they cannot cope with!
As stated I do not like flying singles at night but I am sure I would be happy doing so in the Cirrus as the chute would give me an out!
On an ink black night you have no outs only the hope that what lies below is suitable to land on in the event of an engine failure.
I do not fly without outs as that is a game of Russian Roulette. The Cirrus would give me that out at night and hence I would fly at night! Would flying at night increase my chances of an accident? probably yes.
The same goes with weather or icing would the chute encourage me to press on looking for better weather ahead knowing that if ahead was a hell hole I had the option of an out? probably yes!
Would your non flying PAX be relieved if you briefed them on the use of the chute should you suffer a heart attack or stroke.
Of course they would! Why??? Because again it gives them an out if you blacked out at the controls and they were faced with death themselves.
So we are kidding ourselves if we think the chute will not make pilots more confident and will not encourage them to stray into conditions caution would normally keep them clear of!
That is something that we need to be aware of not something which rubbishes the chute.
This is the first production aircraft to come equipt with an in built chute system!
As it appears to be very efficient there are a whole new areas of operation where we need to consider the use of the chute like an engine failure.
Conventional aircraft the decision is clear you have to keep the aircraft flying to the ground and you have to be accurate! The chute brings in a new option a new "out"
With more options come more decisions! With more decisions the option to make the wrong decision! same as the extra engine in a twin.
The chute should not be used at the first sign of trouble but as a last resort after conventional solutions are considered too risky!
That is where new training should be in making pilots better equipt at making judgments quickly and acting on them and being aware of being lulled into a false sense of security that having a chute gives.
At present there seems to be little manufacturer guidance!!! hence the subject of the Cirrus and its chute will generate discussion and debate as well as a certain amount of controversy!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Oct 2012 at 00:59.
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Was it indicative of a lack of planning before commencing the approach. Should he have made a proper study of the sectional and know what terrain concerns there might be?
I don't know how much time the pilot had in a Cirrus, or indeed any aircraft with an equivalent autopilot. However for anyone in this situation that has had a half acceptable level of training on the aircraft I would have expected the pilot to have engaged the autopilot in heading mode, followed immediately by a climb to recover VMC on autopilot. Set the bug, vs and hit the buttons and up she goes.
If as appears in this case here he lost control, was disorientated at 1000ft in IMC, then I think the chute was the right option.
I understand we all argue he should never have lost control, should be able to easily cope with those conditions, should have planned better but something went wrong and he did the right thing regarding the chute.
I heard on the same day a Baron at the same airport lost control on approach and two people perished.
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I am not sold on some of the virtues of the pilots and in this case I am stunned the guy was IR rated.
For me and most others on this Private Flying section who are basic PPL's it is much tougher, I fly around 120 - 150 hours a year. Most of my approaches in IMC are due to a desire to practice and to try and stay current and improve my skills, I would say I only do 2 or 3 a year in actual IMC for the actual purposes of travel and my minimums are conservative from a planning point of view.
So I can easily see how this guy and plenty of others ended up in trouble, no idea how current or well trained or otherwise he was but this could happen (and does) to plenty of PPL's
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The chute should not be used at the first sign of trouble but as a last resort after conventional solutions are considered too risky
The chute is very ineffective as an option on approach, if you mess it up on that phase there is very few situations where it is effective.
Approach, base to final turn's (read stalls) , incorrect landing speeds, and botched go around,s are a high proportion of Cirrus Fatal's and virtually all are Pilot Error and therefore either currency, incompetency or incorrect training and the Chute is a useless options in these 3 scenario's.
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So I can easily see how this guy and plenty of others ended up in trouble, no idea how current or well trained or otherwise he was but this could happen (and does) to plenty of PPL's
One does here of incidents of IR rated pilots losing control in IMC, mostly in the US because the US has a much larger PPL/IR contingent. Very rare indeed and certainly not enough to offset the overall safety benefit of having more PPL/IRs but I have heard of cases...usually happens after an equipment failure or in turbulence but not always. Some will have had chutes, most not though and likely some will have paid the ultimate price for their loss of control. Thankfully this guy walked away.
I noted from the interview that the interviewer didn't actually get out of him why the crash actually happened...the guy made it sound like the aircraft started spontaneously doing things and that he was just a passenger. I was also amused that he said things like "we train for this all the time..." as if pulling the chute was some sort of complicated procedure that needed training for.
I'm very pro-chute in general but the tone of the interview made me think this guy was an idiot; if he made a mistake, fine, people do and I for one would never assert that oft heard assertion that "that would never happen to me", but if sounded like he was being very dishonest about what had actually happened. If he'd explained to the interviewer that actually he had lost control of his plane on a routine approach and then crashed near a school I doubt the interviewer would have been so praiseworthy...
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I heard on the same day a Baron at the same airport lost control on approach and two people perished.
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I tend to agree! The guy came over as a complete idiot! I think the only thing he was trained in was the use of the chute as there does not appear to be any displayed evidence of anything else running around in his brains.
"We are highly skilled This is what we train for all the time PULL THE CHUTE!"
I am surprised he did not claim to have a PULL THE CHUTE TYPE RATING
FLY THE AIRCRAFT? do not need to do that when I am PULL THE CHUTE rated
Oh well at least the chute saved him and I hope he does a PPL course and some IR training in future
At least we know why our insurance rates are so high!
Pace
I tend to agree! The guy came over as a complete idiot! I think the only thing he was trained in was the use of the chute as there does not appear to be any displayed evidence of anything else running around in his brains.
"We are highly skilled This is what we train for all the time PULL THE CHUTE!"
I am surprised he did not claim to have a PULL THE CHUTE TYPE RATING
FLY THE AIRCRAFT? do not need to do that when I am PULL THE CHUTE rated
Oh well at least the chute saved him and I hope he does a PPL course and some IR training in future
At least we know why our insurance rates are so high!Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Oct 2012 at 08:20.
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If he'd explained to the interviewer that actually he had lost control of his plane on a routine approach and then crashed near a school I doubt the interviewer would have been so praiseworthy...
Anyway it proves the chute works and is reliable.
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I think the issue about training to pull the chute is actually one of learning a mindset to use it. Having followed some of the debates on the COPA forum about this, it's apparent that the chute could have saved more lives, if only the pilots had chosen to pull it in time. One of the reasons for not doing so might be not wanting to be portrayed as lacking in pilot skills. It seems you can't win either way!
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007, sorry I got pulled last night for kids bedtime. I was aware that the link was to PB, rumination, and did not manage to find the other piece I am sure I read. I will continue to look.
The issue is of course, the same as any other. Pilots, whether they have chute or not, straying out of depth, and into situations where the skill set does not match the predicament. Happens every day, hence not much movement on GA fatality stats.
Agree the chute provides an excellent, last chance saloon escape, however, the fundamental, and we keep coming back to it, is proper and adequate training and recency, for flying. Be it Instrument approaches and flying, speed management, general flying skills and ability, or the ability to pull the chute correctly.
The dark question is, - does perceived and added safety features, push individuals into ever more risk. I think yes, however, those indivuduals may have gone there anyway, safety feature or not.
The issue is of course, the same as any other. Pilots, whether they have chute or not, straying out of depth, and into situations where the skill set does not match the predicament. Happens every day, hence not much movement on GA fatality stats.
Agree the chute provides an excellent, last chance saloon escape, however, the fundamental, and we keep coming back to it, is proper and adequate training and recency, for flying. Be it Instrument approaches and flying, speed management, general flying skills and ability, or the ability to pull the chute correctly.
The dark question is, - does perceived and added safety features, push individuals into ever more risk. I think yes, however, those indivuduals may have gone there anyway, safety feature or not.
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Are Cirrus accidents different? Do they perhaps attract or breed a different kind of pilot?
A few years ago, (pre Cirrus) there was an article in an American magazine headed the doctor killer. I think it was pointing a finger at Beechcraft Baron accidents. It was a type of aircraft the writer considered attracted the well heeled but more importantly, ambitious type that expected to be able to pay his money and go fly. Is the Cirrus the new doctor killer?
Dare I suggest to remain instrument current as a private pilot requires another level of dedication to ones hobby. It cannot be done by dedicating two hours per week. One hour for the drive to the airfield and one hour in the air. I think one needs to be totally immersed in aviation.
One further thought. It can't be easy to become disoriented when you have a muckle 10" artificial horizon in front of you!
D.O.
A few years ago, (pre Cirrus) there was an article in an American magazine headed the doctor killer. I think it was pointing a finger at Beechcraft Baron accidents. It was a type of aircraft the writer considered attracted the well heeled but more importantly, ambitious type that expected to be able to pay his money and go fly. Is the Cirrus the new doctor killer?
Dare I suggest to remain instrument current as a private pilot requires another level of dedication to ones hobby. It cannot be done by dedicating two hours per week. One hour for the drive to the airfield and one hour in the air. I think one needs to be totally immersed in aviation.
One further thought. It can't be easy to become disoriented when you have a muckle 10" artificial horizon in front of you!
D.O.