When to use VFR guides instead of AIP?
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When to use VFR guides instead of AIP?
Hello,
I am a student currently working through my PPL. I was reminded of VFR guides on a recent dual cross country flight when my instructor asked if I already had the charts for the airport we were flying to.
My query relates to the appropriate use of these VFR guides (Pooleys one is often recommended to me). When would you use such a VFR guide in place of information from the AIP?
As I understand it, the AIP is the authoritative source of information, also being the most up to date (when also viewed with the relevant circulars etc).
Why would you use a VFR guide in the pre-flight planning process if there is a risk of the information being out of date or simply incorrect to start with? Why not go straight to the source? I see all kinds of ammendments being made to the AIP constantly, whereas the popular VFR guides only seem to be refreshed once a year.
Would greatly appreciate any guidance on this issue.
Thanks,
Odai.
I am a student currently working through my PPL. I was reminded of VFR guides on a recent dual cross country flight when my instructor asked if I already had the charts for the airport we were flying to.
My query relates to the appropriate use of these VFR guides (Pooleys one is often recommended to me). When would you use such a VFR guide in place of information from the AIP?
As I understand it, the AIP is the authoritative source of information, also being the most up to date (when also viewed with the relevant circulars etc).
Why would you use a VFR guide in the pre-flight planning process if there is a risk of the information being out of date or simply incorrect to start with? Why not go straight to the source? I see all kinds of ammendments being made to the AIP constantly, whereas the popular VFR guides only seem to be refreshed once a year.
Would greatly appreciate any guidance on this issue.
Thanks,
Odai.
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My understanding is that the AIP is just licensed airfields whereas Pooleys etc contain not only these but also a multitude of unlicensed fields. If you are worried about the data being out of date then many popular airfields will have a website with up to date airfield information on or at least a phone number for PPR.
For any destination my habit is to check ALL sources of information including the AIP if relevant and clear up any contradictions with a phone call if possible.
For any destination my habit is to check ALL sources of information including the AIP if relevant and clear up any contradictions with a phone call if possible.
Last edited by Beethoven; 3rd Oct 2012 at 05:37.
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There tends to be a lot more information in the VFR guides for the visual pilot than there is in the AIP such as graphical representations of noise abatement areas and non-standard circuits.
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A very good Q, with no straight answer 
In the UK, you can just fly with Pooleys, because it is pretty accurate. It's what I do. There are two reasons it is accurate:
1) The UK AIP is of good quality, and Pooleys get the basic data from there
2) Pooleys is widely used in UK GA so errors get picked up
3) As said above, Pooleys covers unlicensed fields also
Abroad, things are a lot less good and the "pilot guide" publications, where they exist, are much more variable in quality. But then GA activity in the rest of Europe, with the exception of Germany and France, is much lower anyway.
What one consistently finds, with all aviation databases, is that their quality is related to their usage in that particular geographical area...
However I also telephone an airport I am going to, before going there, just to check they are open, have fuel, etc. Very quick and easy. Some are PPR and the phone call covers that, too.
Plan the route
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport
In the UK, you can just fly with Pooleys, because it is pretty accurate. It's what I do. There are two reasons it is accurate:
1) The UK AIP is of good quality, and Pooleys get the basic data from there
2) Pooleys is widely used in UK GA so errors get picked up
3) As said above, Pooleys covers unlicensed fields also
Abroad, things are a lot less good and the "pilot guide" publications, where they exist, are much more variable in quality. But then GA activity in the rest of Europe, with the exception of Germany and France, is much lower anyway.
What one consistently finds, with all aviation databases, is that their quality is related to their usage in that particular geographical area...
However I also telephone an airport I am going to, before going there, just to check they are open, have fuel, etc. Very quick and easy. Some are PPR and the phone call covers that, too.
Plan the route
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport
Last edited by peterh337; 3rd Oct 2012 at 06:28.
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For any destination my habit is to check ALL sources of information
Pooleys has the advantage over the AIP that you can actually fit the whole book in the aircraft, thus if you have to land somewhere unplanned (as I did the other day) you've got the airfield info with you, rather than just having the charts printed out of the AIP for the planned destination and alternates.
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The most important thing - anywhere in Europe - is to get the airport notams.
The AIP is updated in theory once a month, and in practice "everybody knows" that almost nobody reads it, so the first thing any airport will do when something important changes is to stick a notam into the system.
(In the UK unlicensed airports cannot issue notams, AIUI).
The AIP is updated in theory once a month, and in practice "everybody knows" that almost nobody reads it, so the first thing any airport will do when something important changes is to stick a notam into the system.
(In the UK unlicensed airports cannot issue notams, AIUI).
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AIP should be the first source for airports that are covered.
However even for these, Pooley's can supply some additional useful info such as landing fees, availability of food close by and taxi phone numbers.
However even for these, Pooley's can supply some additional useful info such as landing fees, availability of food close by and taxi phone numbers.
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Pooleys has the advantage over the AIP that you can actually fit the whole book in the aircraft, thus if you have to land somewhere unplanned (as I did the other day) you've got the airfield info with you, rather than just having the charts printed out of the AIP for the planned destination and alternates.
After all, airfield layout will hardly change from one year to the next and if you're on a diversion, ATC will expect you to have "incomplete" information. So they will offer you all the frequencies you need, progressive taxi instructions and so forth. So all you really need is a rough idea of airfield layout, reporting points and such.
For places where I do go regularly, I hand-amend an out-of-date Bottlang based on the information from the AIP. Simply because the Bottlang pages are A5 sized and fit nicely on my kneeboard, while the AIP printouts are an unwieldy A4. (Investing in a color laser printer and using some tricks to print the AIP A4 pages onto A5 would work too.)
Last edited by BackPacker; 3rd Oct 2012 at 09:13.
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Because I fly IFR where necessary, I carry a Jeppesen airways manual in the aircraft (it has a monthly update service).
However, the pages are very flimsy and easily damaged. They are also difficult to photocopy without print through from the reverse side for (I'm aware of possible copyright issues). So, if I intend to go to a large airport I often get the plates from the AIS website and print the plates in A4 size, especially the ground taxy charts.
Because I also go to small airfields and helipads I also carry the latest Pooley's VFR Flight guide. If you buy the loose leaf version, a quarterly update service is included, which I'd recommend.
I also PPR airfields, irrespective of whether it's mandatory or not, because of the nature of my job - if I need to go, it's important that I work in a highly professional way. This has proved to be a good idea on any number of occasions, when I was given essential new information that hadn't even been NOTAM'ed.
However, the pages are very flimsy and easily damaged. They are also difficult to photocopy without print through from the reverse side for (I'm aware of possible copyright issues). So, if I intend to go to a large airport I often get the plates from the AIS website and print the plates in A4 size, especially the ground taxy charts.
Because I also go to small airfields and helipads I also carry the latest Pooley's VFR Flight guide. If you buy the loose leaf version, a quarterly update service is included, which I'd recommend.
I also PPR airfields, irrespective of whether it's mandatory or not, because of the nature of my job - if I need to go, it's important that I work in a highly professional way. This has proved to be a good idea on any number of occasions, when I was given essential new information that hadn't even been NOTAM'ed.
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I also PPR airfields, irrespective of whether it's mandatory or not, because of the nature of my job - if I need to go, it's important that I work in a highly professional way
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.
Now they're thinking - that's a good idea!
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First time - telephone call to clarify any matters, second time probably know enough from the first visit to know whether a call is needed for any reason or not.
Whats so hard about a quick 'phone call?
Whats so hard about a quick 'phone call?
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So that's why public airports across Europe are becoming PPR.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.
It's a different world here.
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Plan the route
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport
In fact I flew to France a few weeks ago and the whole pre-flight planning process took about 15-20 minutes. I planned the route, downloaded the notams and plates in SD, filed the flight plan from Skydemon and printed my stuff then off we went. The SD plog was within 5 minutes, the FP's were filed just fine...in fact the only slow bit was the GAR form - It would be nice if you could submit the GAR from SD as well, then life would be really easy.
I didn't phone the airport though.....
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Phoning (or otherwise contacting) airports is a very variable thing...
In the UK, where they speak English (well usually
) a phone call is so trivial as to not be worth worrying about.
Abroad, I am normally planning the flight some days ahead and being lazy I just shoot off faxes+emails to all published contacts (half of which will be duff anyway) and see what comes back. Take a trip like this and you get all kinds of stuff back... a hundred lines about getting the local CAA permission to go there, perhaps. For most of France, no prior contact is needed. Germany is almost as good. N Europe as a whole is pretty good. S Europe much less so and various forms of PPR/PNR are needed.
MANY airports are Customs PNR, everywhere, and in some places (Italy, Spain, Greece, etc) the f******s will deny a landing clearance even if you are on short final when they realise.
In general, with the big H24 airports (e.g. Prague) you can just file and fly. Exceptions known to me are Gatwick, Luton, Stansted (which are 24hrs PPR but they set up their handling cartels to rip you off ~£600 which takes care of removing the "unwanted business" nicely ) and various ones in S Europe.
I know there is a widespread culture among UK pilots against PPR, and indeed most cases of PPR are so obviously pointless, but really it is no big deal especially given the English phone call is so easy, and if you want to fly abroad, you can't pretend aviation is much different across the water, because it isn't.
This is for example what I got from Belgrade LYBE (and I've seen much much longer):
WE ACK & CONFIRM GROUND HANDLING, FUEL FOR FLT
xcxcxcxcxc / 19 SEP 12.
NO SLOTS REQUIRED FOR BEG
NO VHF FREQ FOR HANDLING
FOR OVERFLIGHT, LANDING PERMITS AND NAVIGATION FEES CONTACT
FLIGHT AUTHORITY DEPARTMENT
SITA: BEGTC8X, BEGOMYA E-MAIL: xcxcxcccgov.rs;
FAX + 381 11 311 7518, +381 11 2286 198, +381 11 3104879
TEL + 381 11 292 7017, +381 11 209 7808, +381 11 3104851
ALL CHARGES HAVE TO BE PAID BY CREW IN CASH
OR BY VALID CREDIT CARD (DINERS, VISA, MASTER,
AMERICAN EXPRESS (AMEX) OR EURO CARD).
FOR PAYMENT ON CREDIT (ADVANCE PAYMENT) PLEASE CONTACT OUR COMMERCIAL DEPARTMENT TO SEND YOU PRO FORMA INVOICE WITH EXPECTED CHARGES.
TEL/FAX + 381 11 2286125, + 381 11 2286 188, +381112094844 MR. M. VUJADINOVIC
e-mail: xcxcxcxcxcx
OVER COLLECTIONS WILL BE REFUNDED AND UNDER COLLECTIONS WILL BE INVOICED, ADDITIONALLY.
THIS IS LINK FOR PRICE LISTS
Aerodrom Nikola Tesla | Price Lists
IN ARR/ DEP YOUR PAX AND CREW WILL USE GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL !
GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL WORKING TIME: 07:00-21:00 LT / 0500 - 1900 UTC
FUEL SUPPLIER NAME :
NIS JUGOPETROL TEL +381 11 311 1426, +381 11 311 9488, + 381 11 209 7023
FAX: + 381 11 2286 378, PRICE IS 2, 26614 USDOL/ KG
CARNETS: Jeppesen World Fuel Services Card, Avcard,
US Government AIR card, OR CREDIT CARDS
NB. APROX PRICE FOR HANDLING FOR 1 DAY PARKING AND 1 PX IN DEP IS:
Infrastructure: 18.00 EUR
Handling: 30.00 EUR
Landing: 12.00 EUR
Parking: 3.60 EUR
Lighting: EUR
Use of air bridge: EUR
PAX TAX: 16.50 EUR
Security TAX: 3.30 EUR
DCS: EUR
Cute: EUR
Royality PAX TAX: 0.98 EUR
Royality Cargo TAX: 0.00 EUR
GAT PAX TAX: 15.00 EUR
Total: 99.38 EUR
Airport Nikola Tesla JSC Belgrade
Flight Coordination D Mandic
Tel: +381 11 209 7345
Fax: +381 11 2286 500
SITA: BEGOWXH; BEGAPXH
E-mail: cxcxcxcxcxcx
The bits in bold are particularly relevant
OTOH, you never know, maybe you can ignore all that and just file the flight plan and turn up at the IAF... A lot of pilots do that and don't exactly post all over the internet when they didn't get away with it But, to paraphrase C Eastwood, do you feel lucky, to turn up with 2hrs' fuel and be told to s0d off, and the nearest airport is over a few little hills?
In the UK, where they speak English (well usually
) a phone call is so trivial as to not be worth worrying about.Abroad, I am normally planning the flight some days ahead and being lazy I just shoot off faxes+emails to all published contacts (half of which will be duff anyway) and see what comes back. Take a trip like this and you get all kinds of stuff back... a hundred lines about getting the local CAA permission to go there, perhaps. For most of France, no prior contact is needed. Germany is almost as good. N Europe as a whole is pretty good. S Europe much less so and various forms of PPR/PNR are needed.
MANY airports are Customs PNR, everywhere, and in some places (Italy, Spain, Greece, etc) the f******s will deny a landing clearance even if you are on short final when they realise.
In general, with the big H24 airports (e.g. Prague) you can just file and fly. Exceptions known to me are Gatwick, Luton, Stansted (which are 24hrs PPR but they set up their handling cartels to rip you off ~£600 which takes care of removing the "unwanted business" nicely
) and various ones in S Europe.I know there is a widespread culture among UK pilots against PPR, and indeed most cases of PPR are so obviously pointless, but really it is no big deal especially given the English phone call is so easy, and if you want to fly abroad, you can't pretend aviation is much different across the water, because it isn't.
This is for example what I got from Belgrade LYBE (and I've seen much much longer):
WE ACK & CONFIRM GROUND HANDLING, FUEL FOR FLT
xcxcxcxcxc / 19 SEP 12.
NO SLOTS REQUIRED FOR BEG
NO VHF FREQ FOR HANDLING
FOR OVERFLIGHT, LANDING PERMITS AND NAVIGATION FEES CONTACT
FLIGHT AUTHORITY DEPARTMENT
SITA: BEGTC8X, BEGOMYA E-MAIL: xcxcxcccgov.rs;
FAX + 381 11 311 7518, +381 11 2286 198, +381 11 3104879
TEL + 381 11 292 7017, +381 11 209 7808, +381 11 3104851
ALL CHARGES HAVE TO BE PAID BY CREW IN CASH
OR BY VALID CREDIT CARD (DINERS, VISA, MASTER,
AMERICAN EXPRESS (AMEX) OR EURO CARD).
FOR PAYMENT ON CREDIT (ADVANCE PAYMENT) PLEASE CONTACT OUR COMMERCIAL DEPARTMENT TO SEND YOU PRO FORMA INVOICE WITH EXPECTED CHARGES.
TEL/FAX + 381 11 2286125, + 381 11 2286 188, +381112094844 MR. M. VUJADINOVIC
e-mail: xcxcxcxcxcx
OVER COLLECTIONS WILL BE REFUNDED AND UNDER COLLECTIONS WILL BE INVOICED, ADDITIONALLY.
THIS IS LINK FOR PRICE LISTS
Aerodrom Nikola Tesla | Price Lists
IN ARR/ DEP YOUR PAX AND CREW WILL USE GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL !
GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL WORKING TIME: 07:00-21:00 LT / 0500 - 1900 UTC
FUEL SUPPLIER NAME :
NIS JUGOPETROL TEL +381 11 311 1426, +381 11 311 9488, + 381 11 209 7023
FAX: + 381 11 2286 378, PRICE IS 2, 26614 USDOL/ KG
CARNETS: Jeppesen World Fuel Services Card, Avcard,
US Government AIR card, OR CREDIT CARDS
NB. APROX PRICE FOR HANDLING FOR 1 DAY PARKING AND 1 PX IN DEP IS:
Infrastructure: 18.00 EUR
Handling: 30.00 EUR
Landing: 12.00 EUR
Parking: 3.60 EUR
Lighting: EUR
Use of air bridge: EUR
PAX TAX: 16.50 EUR
Security TAX: 3.30 EUR
DCS: EUR
Cute: EUR
Royality PAX TAX: 0.98 EUR
Royality Cargo TAX: 0.00 EUR
GAT PAX TAX: 15.00 EUR
Total: 99.38 EUR
Airport Nikola Tesla JSC Belgrade
Flight Coordination D Mandic
Tel: +381 11 209 7345
Fax: +381 11 2286 500
SITA: BEGOWXH; BEGAPXH
E-mail: cxcxcxcxcxcx
The bits in bold are particularly relevant
OTOH, you never know, maybe you can ignore all that and just file the flight plan and turn up at the IAF... A lot of pilots do that and don't exactly post all over the internet when they didn't get away with it
But, to paraphrase C Eastwood, do you feel lucky, to turn up with 2hrs' fuel and be told to s0d off, and the nearest airport is over a few little hills?
Last edited by peterh337; 3rd Oct 2012 at 15:19.
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For me the Pooleys VFR plates are well presented and fit nicely into an A5 plastic sleeve which I can use on my kneeboard. Besides the other reasons already mentioned, printing off the AIP plates onto A5 leaves a large print border and makes it hard to read some of the information. Also, Pooleys give a whole load of other information which you can keep with you in the plane (LARS coverage with times and days of station availability. It also has guidance on flying to France, Channel Islands etc, and things line sunset times. All quite handy as a reference and for flight planning.
Also, if you subscribe to Pooleys, they will send updated plates for free when they change.
Also, if you subscribe to Pooleys, they will send updated plates for free when they change.
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So that's why public airports across Europe are becoming PPR.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.
). We're not joy-riding here.It's all to do with making sure the plan works on the day, without any stupid hold-ups, so that my passengers can be provided with a professional, efficient service, which they fully expect.
The OP said, "I am a student currently working through my PPL. "
Get the AFE VFR flight guide. It has all of the airfields listed in Pooley's plus over a hundred more.
Get some informed advice regarding the use of SkyDemon.
Good luck with your training.
Get the AFE VFR flight guide. It has all of the airfields listed in Pooley's plus over a hundred more.
Get some informed advice regarding the use of SkyDemon.
Good luck with your training.
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I suspect ShyTorque is concerned about landing, first time, right next to the waiting car so the PAX steps out of the helicopter, into a car and goes directly out of the airport to their destination. Not so much about getting faffed around in the air.