When to use VFR guides instead of AIP?
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Ok, but as peter says:
That sounds like stupid admin work to me. Just declare Mayday and land. The public use airport obviously has no clue about general aviation.
The bits in bold are particularly relevant. OTOH, you never know, maybe you can ignore all that and just file the flight plan and turn up at the IAF... do you feel lucky, to turn up with 2hrs' fuel and be told to s0d off, and the nearest airport is over a few little hills?
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It is a terribly poor state of affairs if an airport has to hold up a flight because they think they have not "PPRed".
If it is a public airport it would be good to know in advance that the landing fee will now require a mortgage!
There is a whole world outside the USA.
To answer the OP my vote goes to Pooleys. There is just so much info and of course the man himself is such a gent.
D.O.
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Maybe. But all of the world's GA movements combined doesn't even come anywhere close to ours. I wonder why. 
D.O.
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The concept of "public use" doesn't really exist in Europe.
Some French airports are owned by the local authority (the Chamber of Commerce, etc) and in the UK a small number are. But most are on private land and if they put up a rule saying you have to wear pink underpants to fly there, they are entitled to do that.
A lot of PPR in the UK is a nod to the conditions for getting the planning permission.
This has been done to death on all the UK forums but IMHO the only really objectionable situation is where "PPR by telephone" is insisted on - which is self evidently a complete farce when you realise you can get a satellite phone for about £300 from Ebay and make the "phone call" with that. No airfield should require PPR by phone only. Obviously they can always turn away traffic which just turns up, for a good reason, but they should not turn away traffic for no reason, only because they did not get PPR. However many airports in Europe will refuse a landing clearance if you didn't get PPR...
In the UK, to some degree it depends on the type of CAA license. If the airport is on a "public license" (e.g. Shoreham) they cannot turn away (refuse a landing clearance to) people selectively. If it is a "non public license" (e.g. Goodwood, AFAIK) they can turn away people they don't like (the extra complication is that Goodwood is not ATC and the FISO could not refuse a landing other than by passing a message "on behalf of the airport owner I am not allowing you to land").
It's not a satisfactory situation but that is what we have here in Europe, and we have to make the best of it.
Some French airports are owned by the local authority (the Chamber of Commerce, etc) and in the UK a small number are. But most are on private land and if they put up a rule saying you have to wear pink underpants to fly there, they are entitled to do that.
A lot of PPR in the UK is a nod to the conditions for getting the planning permission.
This has been done to death on all the UK forums but IMHO the only really objectionable situation is where "PPR by telephone" is insisted on - which is self evidently a complete farce when you realise you can get a satellite phone for about £300 from Ebay and make the "phone call" with that. No airfield should require PPR by phone only. Obviously they can always turn away traffic which just turns up, for a good reason, but they should not turn away traffic for no reason, only because they did not get PPR. However many airports in Europe will refuse a landing clearance if you didn't get PPR...
In the UK, to some degree it depends on the type of CAA license. If the airport is on a "public license" (e.g. Shoreham) they cannot turn away (refuse a landing clearance to) people selectively. If it is a "non public license" (e.g. Goodwood, AFAIK) they can turn away people they don't like (the extra complication is that Goodwood is not ATC and the FISO could not refuse a landing other than by passing a message "on behalf of the airport owner I am not allowing you to land").
It's not a satisfactory situation but that is what we have here in Europe, and we have to make the best of it.
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This has been done to death on all the UK forums but IMHO the only really objectionable situation is where "PPR by telephone" is insisted on -
In some cases and at some times this would seem pointless.
The reason phone (or on line with contact details) is insisted at my local field is:-
a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.
D.O.
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To be fair, I have very rarely found this a problem in the UK.
Duxford were notorious about requiring PPR in advance, Blackbushe and Elstree could be prickly but that was about the extent of it - doubtless there are a few others that are well known.
I famously recall passing Duxford once and thinking a coffee and a quick visit would be pleasant as clearly nothing was going on. Of course we hadn't PPRed and told them so. From 1,000 feet a telehone call is often not too much of a problem - did we 'phone them and end up with our coffee, well if we did it rather demonstrates what a complete nonsense this is.
Mind you I do know of one airfield (which I am not going to name) which is PPR but in reality only PPR for one small group of individuals which will always be refused permission - everyone else is welcome.
Duxford were notorious about requiring PPR in advance, Blackbushe and Elstree could be prickly but that was about the extent of it - doubtless there are a few others that are well known.
I famously recall passing Duxford once and thinking a coffee and a quick visit would be pleasant as clearly nothing was going on. Of course we hadn't PPRed and told them so. From 1,000 feet a telehone call is often not too much of a problem - did we 'phone them and end up with our coffee, well if we did it rather demonstrates what a complete nonsense this is.
Mind you I do know of one airfield (which I am not going to name) which is PPR but in reality only PPR for one small group of individuals which will always be refused permission - everyone else is welcome.
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dont overfil
- sure, but playing devils advocate;
- in which case say in the flight guides, AIP, no radio, no landing (other then in an emergency when you cant refuse a landing anyway),
- plenty of places use multiple runways, why cant the pilot be told over the radio multiple runways in use - if he had been told over the 'phone what difference would it really make,
- why, are you suggesting the CAA will only licence (assuming it is licensed) the field if PPR is ONLY by 'phone, what is the difference with PPR over the radio?
- if its not in the flight guides then well worth having it included I agree but that shouldnt be too difficult and could end up simply being a convenient excuse,
- I very much doubt you actually want to accept the responsibility of reporting someone missing because they didnt arrive - that could be a very dangerous game indeed,
- but that is true of anywhere and any airport.
- sure, but playing devils advocate;
- in which case say in the flight guides, AIP, no radio, no landing (other then in an emergency when you cant refuse a landing anyway),
- plenty of places use multiple runways, why cant the pilot be told over the radio multiple runways in use - if he had been told over the 'phone what difference would it really make,
- why, are you suggesting the CAA will only licence (assuming it is licensed) the field if PPR is ONLY by 'phone, what is the difference with PPR over the radio?
- if its not in the flight guides then well worth having it included I agree but that shouldnt be too difficult and could end up simply being a convenient excuse,
- I very much doubt you actually want to accept the responsibility of reporting someone missing because they didnt arrive - that could be a very dangerous game indeed,
- but that is true of anywhere and any airport.
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The reason phone (or on line with contact details) is insisted at my local field is:-
a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.
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- in which case say in the flight guides, AIP, no radio, no landing (other then in an emergency when you cant refuse a landing anyway),
- plenty of places use multiple runways, why cant the pilot be told over the radio multiple runways in use - if he had been told over the 'phone what difference would it really make,
- why, are you suggesting the CAA will only licence (assuming it is licensed) the field if PPR is ONLY by 'phone, what is the difference with PPR over the radio?
- if its not in the flight guides then well worth having it included I agree but that shouldnt be too difficult and could end up simply being a convenient excuse,
- I very much doubt you actually want to accept the responsibility of reporting someone missing because they didnt arrive - that could be a very dangerous game indeed,
Sorry. I can't type as fast as you guys.
D.O.
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a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.
d) is most curious too; I have never heard of the CAA even acknowledging the existence of flight guides
I do like f) but why not get all proposed visitors to fax you a copy of their PPL?
I see where you are coming from but isn't it a sad state of affairs that somebody feels the need to explain to a pilot how to land a plane? In fact if I was looking at this legally the last thing I would want to get involved with is a mandatory safety briefing because it implies that the airfield is in some way unreasonably dangerous. What if the pilot asks if there are potholes, you say No, and he goes into one and goes after you for the £20k?
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Sorry but this is all trash.
Then fly higher. Airplanes don't fly by radio waves. Transmit above the mountain, not in the next valley.
Get the info from the ATIS, or ATC or from other pilots. Look out the window.
Get the recordings from the radio transmissions
NOTAM.
File a Flight Plan
Sorry to be blunt here Soaring but you don't seem to know what aviation is like here in the UK.
I have flown every year for the past 18 years in the USA. I know it's great but as I've said it's a.......
D.O.
Edited: Getting my next and last mixed up.
Last edited by dont overfil; 5th Oct 2012 at 16:07.
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why would the CAA insist on PPR?
It is enough of an issue to make my employer buy an on line system for a visitor to complete. If they don't then I must.
The pub's open now so I'm off!
D.O.
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d) is most curious too; I have never heard of the CAA even acknowledging the existence of flight guides 
There's a chance that 60% of pilots will read a Pooleys or VFR guide. I doubt if 10% read the AIP. By the time it comes out in the flight guide a year could have passed before the info trickles through.
Example.
An issue was discovered in February 2012. A 933 form was submitted and the issue results in a notam only until the next AIRAC cycle. Notam disappears in July because it is now in the updated AIC. Pooleys put it in their subscribed updates to appear immediately. It will then appear in their
2013 issue which most tight wads will not see untill one is discarded in 2014.
Pub calls
D.O.
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There's a chance that 60% of pilots will read a Pooleys or VFR guide. I doubt if 10% read the AIP. By the time it comes out in the flight guide a year could have passed before the info trickles through.
But what kind of information are you talking about which is so critical that it could not be passed on (or become obvious on) the first radio call?
There is a broader point here. Greece, for example, has not had an online AIP until very recently, and the printed one was full of outdated crap, so the airports permanently notam important stuff like opening hours. Why can't the UK do that? Everybody knows that almost nobody reads the AIP.
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While it would be nice not to have to bother with PPR, I really don't have a problem with it most of the time. The only times it annoys me is when an airport insists on PPR, but then doesn't answer their phone for days on end!
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It is enough of an issue to make my employer buy an on line system for a visitor to complete. If they don't then I must.
You log onto their website, read the predetermined briefing and any supplements for today, and then enter your details as confirmation of receiving the briefing. Then you have PPR.
It would allow people to PPR after closing hours for a flight early the next day, and you would never need to be able to get through to anyone on the phone.
dp
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I suspect ShyTorque is concerned about landing, first time, right next to the waiting car so the PAX steps out of the helicopter, into a car and goes directly out of the airport to their destination. Not so much about getting faffed around in the air.
From experience, doing the bare minimum required by law doesn't always work this side of the Atlantic, for a variety of reasons.
A phone call takes a couple of minutes. I've never been taken to task for sorting my life out in advance by phone, by those that matter, let alone from across the Atlantic by someone who obviously doesn't understand our system.
I think some folk just have a need to try to belittle others.
