IFR IMC scary?
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I fly perfectly happily in solid IMC and have done for most of my flying career. There is nothing scary about it per se, but it does need planning and preparation in advance and throughout the flight. There's an old joke about flying in IMC " If you aren't busy you've missed something" and it's very true.
Issues that need some level of advance planning are things like icing risks cloud thickness and layering (learn about Skew-t diagrams like this one skew-t
)
Be very wary of embedded CB and conditions when fog might form
Instrument flying is all about procedure and plan, prepare them, follow them and adapt them as you go minute by minute.
Issues that need some level of advance planning are things like icing risks cloud thickness and layering (learn about Skew-t diagrams like this one skew-t
)
Be very wary of embedded CB and conditions when fog might form
Instrument flying is all about procedure and plan, prepare them, follow them and adapt them as you go minute by minute.
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I sail a bit.
Many sailors get worried about rough conditions. I think many of us worry about the going get rough in IMC - I know I do. Sometimes it can be really unpleasant - aside form concerns about icing or CBs.
Since this is a serious discussions and not about degrees of putting yourself in harms way one thing that has always given me great comfort is when it happens in fact most yachts and most aircraft will give up a long long time after the captain although in different ways it is helpful if the captain doesn't give up either!
In sailing terms i knew some guys who bailed out in very bad conditions way up in the northern latitudes. Sadly 3 out of 4 of them died. The fourth immediately made a great deal of fuss about how the yacht had let them down and how skilled the crew were. Three weeks later the yacht was found adrift - there was almost no damage at all. Little more was said.
Light aircraft are a bit like that; they will look after you amazingly well as long as you don't give up so if like me you worry about breaking the thing your fears are almost certainly misplaced. When things get rough at least that is reassuring.
Just a different slant in case that was part of your grounds for concern.
Many sailors get worried about rough conditions. I think many of us worry about the going get rough in IMC - I know I do. Sometimes it can be really unpleasant - aside form concerns about icing or CBs.
Since this is a serious discussions and not about degrees of putting yourself in harms way one thing that has always given me great comfort is when it happens in fact most yachts and most aircraft will give up a long long time after the captain although in different ways it is helpful if the captain doesn't give up either!
In sailing terms i knew some guys who bailed out in very bad conditions way up in the northern latitudes. Sadly 3 out of 4 of them died. The fourth immediately made a great deal of fuss about how the yacht had let them down and how skilled the crew were. Three weeks later the yacht was found adrift - there was almost no damage at all. Little more was said.
Light aircraft are a bit like that; they will look after you amazingly well as long as you don't give up so if like me you worry about breaking the thing your fears are almost certainly misplaced. When things get rough at least that is reassuring.
Just a different slant in case that was part of your grounds for concern.
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The worst turbulence I ever experienced was not in cloud but in clear air over the Alps in a private jet!
We had departed Nice on a northerly SID and had severe turbulence between FL200 and FL300! 45 degree wing drops, cupboards flying open , climb rate 1500 to 2000 fpm above normal.
The worst you will get in cloud is running into a CB in which case reduce speed and ride it!
But turbulence in cloud should not be any greater an issue than turbulence out of it !
Pace
We had departed Nice on a northerly SID and had severe turbulence between FL200 and FL300! 45 degree wing drops, cupboards flying open , climb rate 1500 to 2000 fpm above normal.
The worst you will get in cloud is running into a CB in which case reduce speed and ride it!
But turbulence in cloud should not be any greater an issue than turbulence out of it !
Pace
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Peter
I have run into CBs in cloud and the inherent turbulence shear etc! while IMC I have not to date had a major problem controlling the situation which usually means disconnecting the autopilot and hand flying anyway.
There is a slight advantage being VMC but not as great as one would imagine.
If anyone is suggesting that an IMC pilot will loose control of an aircraft in IMC if he hits turbulence then I would question the suitability of that pilot being there in the first place as well as his training which will have been inadequate? Sorry!!!
That is as bad as saying that if you loose an engine in IMC on a twin you will loose control ? You should be almost as comfortable on instruments as you are with visual references.
If your not you are asking for trouble if anything goes wrong with either the aircraft or weather!
So to the new IMC pilot build up slowly and do not take on more than you can handle,
Pace
I have run into CBs in cloud and the inherent turbulence shear etc! while IMC I have not to date had a major problem controlling the situation which usually means disconnecting the autopilot and hand flying anyway.
There is a slight advantage being VMC but not as great as one would imagine.
If anyone is suggesting that an IMC pilot will loose control of an aircraft in IMC if he hits turbulence then I would question the suitability of that pilot being there in the first place as well as his training which will have been inadequate? Sorry!!!
That is as bad as saying that if you loose an engine in IMC on a twin you will loose control ? You should be almost as comfortable on instruments as you are with visual references.
If your not you are asking for trouble if anything goes wrong with either the aircraft or weather!
So to the new IMC pilot build up slowly and do not take on more than you can handle,
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Oct 2012 at 07:35.
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Fear comes from a lack of knowledge
I used to fly bank checks in crappy planes, single engine etc. all wx.
may I suggest.
one...fly an IFR flight with nice weather and a nice local area that you are familiar with.
next, fly the same flight IMC (also IFR for you english guys) with lots of weather briefing and within the capabilities of you r plane.
then do it again.
ok for baby steps...but remember anything CAN happen on a nice day or a bad day. you are responsible...you have to know what to do if you are IMC and your engine quits.
you have to have ideas and the imagination, yes imagination to handle things...flying is done with the imagination so try thinking through a flight.
eventually you will get used to it...even imc at night.
good luck...
may I suggest.
one...fly an IFR flight with nice weather and a nice local area that you are familiar with.
next, fly the same flight IMC (also IFR for you english guys) with lots of weather briefing and within the capabilities of you r plane.
then do it again.
ok for baby steps...but remember anything CAN happen on a nice day or a bad day. you are responsible...you have to know what to do if you are IMC and your engine quits.
you have to have ideas and the imagination, yes imagination to handle things...flying is done with the imagination so try thinking through a flight.
eventually you will get used to it...even imc at night.
good luck...
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Pace - what I was getting at is that no way IMC can be "better" than VMC.
In VMC, the only turbulence (AFAIK) is going to be one related to horizontal airflow, which will be the jetstream shearing against the air around it, or lower level airflow (wind) flowing over terrain.
In IMC, you can get all of the above, plus vertical airflows (caused by water phase change) which, if you enter them at a high enough speed, can exceed the max G of the aircraft.
I would agree that one "should never get killed" through any penetration of anything (flying I mean
) provided one is below the Va figure applicable to the current aircraft loading and one avoids excessive or repetitive control inputs.
But pure survival is different from doing a flight on which the passengers will ever fly with you again, and if the passenger is say your GF or wife, such an event is going to have a profound effect on your relationship or your flying (or both)
In VMC, the only turbulence (AFAIK) is going to be one related to horizontal airflow, which will be the jetstream shearing against the air around it, or lower level airflow (wind) flowing over terrain.
In IMC, you can get all of the above, plus vertical airflows (caused by water phase change) which, if you enter them at a high enough speed, can exceed the max G of the aircraft.
I would agree that one "should never get killed" through any penetration of anything (flying I mean
) provided one is below the Va figure applicable to the current aircraft loading and one avoids excessive or repetitive control inputs. But pure survival is different from doing a flight on which the passengers will ever fly with you again, and if the passenger is say your GF or wife, such an event is going to have a profound effect on your relationship or your flying (or both)
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Peter
Your answer is to have more than one girlfriend then if you loose one because she will not fly with you then you have a fall back? Never put all your eggs in one basket a good flying principal
I well remember a trip I did just after I had got my twin rating with a superb instructor.
I went with him to gain experience to drop some people up in Inverness in the middle of winter in a Baron 55.
I flew left seat back at night with him in the right. There was a Sigmet with strong winds and severe turbulence below 8000 feet and CBs.
We took off and soon entered a snow storm.
The flakes were so dense and intense they were blinding and the only way you could fly was not to look out but fly the instruments.
This was in the dead of night over Scotland in severe turbulence.
I can distinctly remember thinking that I was using all I had to hold it together and what would happen if the engine suddenly failed to add to the mix!
We burst out of that frontal weather down by Glasgow and were met by smooth air and a million city lights below.
That was 25 years ago and was an excellent lesson for me. Since then I have flown all manner of weather even dust which turned into a sand storm on landing in Saudi Arabia and really do not now see a lot of difference between flying with outside reference or instruments.
An emergency in cloud is obviously more serious than on a CAVOK day because it is more challenging but that does not mean its not do able.
Pace
Your answer is to have more than one girlfriend then if you loose one because she will not fly with you then you have a fall back? Never put all your eggs in one basket a good flying principal
I well remember a trip I did just after I had got my twin rating with a superb instructor.
I went with him to gain experience to drop some people up in Inverness in the middle of winter in a Baron 55.
I flew left seat back at night with him in the right. There was a Sigmet with strong winds and severe turbulence below 8000 feet and CBs.
We took off and soon entered a snow storm.
The flakes were so dense and intense they were blinding and the only way you could fly was not to look out but fly the instruments.
This was in the dead of night over Scotland in severe turbulence.
I can distinctly remember thinking that I was using all I had to hold it together and what would happen if the engine suddenly failed to add to the mix!
We burst out of that frontal weather down by Glasgow and were met by smooth air and a million city lights below.
That was 25 years ago and was an excellent lesson for me. Since then I have flown all manner of weather even dust which turned into a sand storm on landing in Saudi Arabia and really do not now see a lot of difference between flying with outside reference or instruments.
An emergency in cloud is obviously more serious than on a CAVOK day because it is more challenging but that does not mean its not do able.
Pace
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OK I agree with all that, except the multiple GF part One (good one) is plenty
is also very true. One should be able to smoothly flip between flying visually and flying on instruments.
That goes contrary to a lot of traditional teaching, and is IMHO one of the benefits of having a lot of sim time before doing the PPL (a lot of instructors will disagree).
One (good one) is plenty
really do not now see a lot of difference between flying with outside reference or instruments.
That goes contrary to a lot of traditional teaching, and is IMHO one of the benefits of having a lot of sim time before doing the PPL (a lot of instructors will disagree).
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is also very true. One should be able to smoothly flip between flying visually and flying on instruments.
That is a little different as it involves changing your mind set from close up scanning mode to to distance mode.
Hence coming out of an intense instrument scan to becoming visual can confuse your mind while that adjustment takes place and your vision takes in a whole new and different set of information.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Oct 2012 at 09:46.
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I don't have my instrument ticket quite yet, so don't have the benefit of your IMC flying experience. But I'm not sure I agree that you can not get into structural problems in a severe turbulence or CB's even when you're flying within certified parameters. It seems to me that the majority of structural failures happen in CB or turbulence. Now, they could be a result of overspeeding, overbanking etc, but not all of them. I think there's a grey zone here, and because the victims of structural failure never live to tell about it, and we don't carry data recorders, it's not something that can be processed in statistics.
Just this morning I got AOPA safety foundations new accident case study about a Cherokee Six that breaks up with 5 people on board in a storm in Texas last summer. It's a marginal decision to continue at night with so much bad weather, but honestly, with such a well equipped airplane you'd be forgiven if you'd made the same choice as he did. Have a look:
http://flash.aopa.org/asf/acs_timela....mc_id=F912SP3
Did he overspeed? Did he overbank? Probably, but we don't know that for sure. There is a remote possibility that the CB was severe enough as to cause structural failure even if he was flying within design parameters. So, the lesson one must take from this and countless other flights is that flying at night, in, or close to CB's, is a bad idea. It's better to take the long way around.
Just this morning I got AOPA safety foundations new accident case study about a Cherokee Six that breaks up with 5 people on board in a storm in Texas last summer. It's a marginal decision to continue at night with so much bad weather, but honestly, with such a well equipped airplane you'd be forgiven if you'd made the same choice as he did. Have a look:
http://flash.aopa.org/asf/acs_timela....mc_id=F912SP3
Did he overspeed? Did he overbank? Probably, but we don't know that for sure. There is a remote possibility that the CB was severe enough as to cause structural failure even if he was flying within design parameters. So, the lesson one must take from this and countless other flights is that flying at night, in, or close to CB's, is a bad idea. It's better to take the long way around.
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He was either flying well past Va, or lost control of it and ended up well past Va.
The idea of Va is that it is a low enough speed that the wing will stall before the max G is exceeded.
This is nowadays known to be not quite foolproof, in that excessive and especially repetitive and large control inputs can break something even if flying below Va.
But in general if you keep the plane the right way up, more or less, maintain pitch attitude, and keep the speed down below Va, it should not break in any weather.
The idea of Va is that it is a low enough speed that the wing will stall before the max G is exceeded.
This is nowadays known to be not quite foolproof, in that excessive and especially repetitive and large control inputs can break something even if flying below Va.
But in general if you keep the plane the right way up, more or less, maintain pitch attitude, and keep the speed down below Va, it should not break in any weather.
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now wait a second...
to original poster:
now don't go looking to fly into a thunderstorm, or clouds with great vertical development (CB, towering Q et) unless you really know what you are doing.
it also seems to me that perhaps you are hesitant to fly IMC because you have not had enough instruction in actual IMC...perhaps your instructor hasn't had much actual experience in the clouds.
certainly without radar and other modern conveniences you can get hurt...
I've read some stuff about Va here on the forum...alot of things can cause a plane to crash. Losing the attitude gyro, ask air franc epilots about pitot tubes icing up...
you can even bump your head on the ceiling of the plane and knock yourself out.
read all you can about weather flying...indeed there is a fine book called: ''weather flying'' by buck.
have an ''out''. (with ifr clearance) go into clouds, but know that you can turn to BLANK heading and be out soon.
but by the same token...a pilot has to be in command of a situation.
when I was actively teaching, I insisted my students know where they were while IFR/IMC...even without fancy moving maps, gps etc. And that they could ''make up'' an instrument approach to any airport on the chart.
my advice is to find a more experienced instructor/pilot and pay him to teach you a bit more than you already know.
and to anyone who thinks a cherokee six is a well equipped plane ...well you have along way to go. I flew bank checks in a cherokee six, the original lance, and the arrow. It was WORK and I had to THINK to stay ahead of every eventuality.
Our bank check company lost a number of pilots in bad wx.
so...think about it.
now don't go looking to fly into a thunderstorm, or clouds with great vertical development (CB, towering Q et) unless you really know what you are doing.
it also seems to me that perhaps you are hesitant to fly IMC because you have not had enough instruction in actual IMC...perhaps your instructor hasn't had much actual experience in the clouds.
certainly without radar and other modern conveniences you can get hurt...
I've read some stuff about Va here on the forum...alot of things can cause a plane to crash. Losing the attitude gyro, ask air franc epilots about pitot tubes icing up...
you can even bump your head on the ceiling of the plane and knock yourself out.
read all you can about weather flying...indeed there is a fine book called: ''weather flying'' by buck.
have an ''out''. (with ifr clearance) go into clouds, but know that you can turn to BLANK heading and be out soon.
but by the same token...a pilot has to be in command of a situation.
when I was actively teaching, I insisted my students know where they were while IFR/IMC...even without fancy moving maps, gps etc. And that they could ''make up'' an instrument approach to any airport on the chart.
my advice is to find a more experienced instructor/pilot and pay him to teach you a bit more than you already know.
and to anyone who thinks a cherokee six is a well equipped plane ...well you have along way to go. I flew bank checks in a cherokee six, the original lance, and the arrow. It was WORK and I had to THINK to stay ahead of every eventuality.
Our bank check company lost a number of pilots in bad wx.
so...think about it.
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That Pic of Peter's GF is reminiscent of the Lady Diana see through dress one....
One good one far better Peter
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Oct 2012 at 08:47.
