dr 400 160
As everyone has said lovely aeroplanes. One odd thing, like many French aircraft is the way the seat moves when you move it aft, it tilts the seat rearward and if you are tall you can finish up in an "unusual attitude".
When stalling this range I have found that if you maintain the aircraft in balance it is quite benign however; with a little inbalance it drops a wing, nothing exciting but enough for the aircraft to tell you if you were in balance or not.
When stalling this range I have found that if you maintain the aircraft in balance it is quite benign however; with a little inbalance it drops a wing, nothing exciting but enough for the aircraft to tell you if you were in balance or not.
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A & C, I was approached by an instructor today and she told me that in the last three months there have been nine (!) runway excursions due to this issue. eight ended with no drama, and it was only our -160 which ended up against the PAPI. And this was not just within our club, but across the Netherlands, and across a variety of maintenance organizations. New club policy is, apparently (I have not seen it in writing), to only allow one adult or two children in the back. Not two adults, even if that falls within the W&B envelope.
Like I said, I still consider it something that you need to know about, and apparently not enough pilots do. With the proper technique (either keeping the nose off the ground and using aerodynamic steering, or making sure there is sufficient weight on the nose wheel) it is a complete non-issue. But if you use a sloppy technique, maybe bred from flying PA28s or C172s, it may bite you so you need to be aware of this.
But apart from this I agree that it's a lovely aircraft to fly. I got 40 minutes in the Ecoflyer (with the 2.0 Thielert/Centurion) today again and it was a reminder of what this aircraft is really capable of. Quiet, comfortable, excellent view, really docile handling even in turbulence. Very slippery at cruise speeds, but with full flaps and speeds below 80 or so knots, very draggy, so very useful when you've got to fly short circuits due to other traffic.
Like I said, I still consider it something that you need to know about, and apparently not enough pilots do. With the proper technique (either keeping the nose off the ground and using aerodynamic steering, or making sure there is sufficient weight on the nose wheel) it is a complete non-issue. But if you use a sloppy technique, maybe bred from flying PA28s or C172s, it may bite you so you need to be aware of this.
But apart from this I agree that it's a lovely aircraft to fly. I got 40 minutes in the Ecoflyer (with the 2.0 Thielert/Centurion) today again and it was a reminder of what this aircraft is really capable of. Quiet, comfortable, excellent view, really docile handling even in turbulence. Very slippery at cruise speeds, but with full flaps and speeds below 80 or so knots, very draggy, so very useful when you've got to fly short circuits due to other traffic.
Last edited by BackPacker; 8th Sep 2012 at 21:43.
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Backpacker
I think you may need to get the aircaft looked at and the landing gear checked to make sure that it is serviced in accordance with the manual or the nose gear centering cam needs to have the rigging checked, if it s an Eco-flyer a re-weighed Might be in order.
We were asked to cover the mechanical side of an Avionic upgrade on a quite new Eco-flyer and found that the factory weight & balance calculations were a mile out (that's 1.852Km your side of the ditch). We had to re-weigh the aircraft twice to make sure that we got it all correct.
We assumed that this was an isolated incident but if you have evidence that these aircraft are departing the runway on a regular basis then it might be a good time to check that the W&B paperwork issued by the factory is correct, this can only be done by reweighing the aircraft.
The loading rules that your club are applying are useless if the information that you base your loading calculations on are incorect or the landing gear is wrongly serviced, such club rules are made as a knee jerk reaction by those who have not taken the time to fully understand the problem.
There is no reason why a properly loaded and rigged DR400 should not fly safely, misguided club rules like these just cover up more fundamental defects that will come home to bite someone.
We were asked to cover the mechanical side of an Avionic upgrade on a quite new Eco-flyer and found that the factory weight & balance calculations were a mile out (that's 1.852Km your side of the ditch). We had to re-weigh the aircraft twice to make sure that we got it all correct.
We assumed that this was an isolated incident but if you have evidence that these aircraft are departing the runway on a regular basis then it might be a good time to check that the W&B paperwork issued by the factory is correct, this can only be done by reweighing the aircraft.
The loading rules that your club are applying are useless if the information that you base your loading calculations on are incorect or the landing gear is wrongly serviced, such club rules are made as a knee jerk reaction by those who have not taken the time to fully understand the problem.
There is no reason why a properly loaded and rigged DR400 should not fly safely, misguided club rules like these just cover up more fundamental defects that will come home to bite someone.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Sep 2012 at 07:15.
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Greetings,
I had a short go in flying a DR400 which is based in Redhill.
At first I was a bit sceptical, wooden frame and cranked wing, but soon after lift off (and it was like a bullet), I was converted.
Loved the bit of flying, very responsive, finger tip flying just like playing the piano hehehe. The aeroplane has great performance and excellent visibility.
I had a short go in flying a DR400 which is based in Redhill.
At first I was a bit sceptical, wooden frame and cranked wing, but soon after lift off (and it was like a bullet), I was converted.
Loved the bit of flying, very responsive, finger tip flying just like playing the piano hehehe. The aeroplane has great performance and excellent visibility.
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I own a DR400/180..just an example of the amazing capability of the type took the family on holiday to La Rochelle this year 4 adults 40 kg baggage 140lts.(4 hours) of fuel all within correct weight and balance. Take off ground roll from the poh 320m at that weight(1100kg) and it achieved it.I,ve been flying Robins for nearly 40 years...just superb.VBR Stampe
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Any and all advice will be gratefully received.
Not long qualified ppl on a C152 and also recently checked out on a C150.
I have booked a "lesson" on a DR400/120 but have been told that I'm getting a brief get to know it before going through a checkride. He's confident!
I realise the main differences: (low wing, stick not yoke, no toe brakes [thats going to be novel!], fuel pump & 4 seater not 2).
OK any and all advice will be gratefully received on what I should be aware of; think about; handling.
Many thanks
Jude
I have booked a "lesson" on a DR400/120 but have been told that I'm getting a brief get to know it before going through a checkride. He's confident!
I realise the main differences: (low wing, stick not yoke, no toe brakes [thats going to be novel!], fuel pump & 4 seater not 2).
OK any and all advice will be gratefully received on what I should be aware of; think about; handling.
Many thanks
Jude
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...Much lower nose down attitude in the cruise than you'd be used to in the Cessna. Get that right or you'll not get the performance.
On take-off you need to make a positive 'break' once the speed gets to 60kts.
Direct 2-stage flap - none of that electrical rubbish. Get your speed control right for the approach and the flaps really are effective, though small
Oh - and be careful climbing in. The seats are quite vulnerable so don't abuse them by putting your full weight on the seat back when climbing in and out.
Also, the undercarriage is not as forgiving a a Cessna or Piper. It is strong, but good well held-off landings are what you should be aiming for.
The 120 is rather under-powered, but a good introduction to the type.
On take-off you need to make a positive 'break' once the speed gets to 60kts.
Direct 2-stage flap - none of that electrical rubbish. Get your speed control right for the approach and the flaps really are effective, though small
Oh - and be careful climbing in. The seats are quite vulnerable so don't abuse them by putting your full weight on the seat back when climbing in and out.
Also, the undercarriage is not as forgiving a a Cessna or Piper. It is strong, but good well held-off landings are what you should be aiming for.
The 120 is rather under-powered, but a good introduction to the type.
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Jude098
Be prepared to be underwhelmed by the performance of the DR400-120, it is very short on power but the cruise speed is not bad.
The braking system depends on the age as toe brakes became standard in about 1985, a retrofit kit is also avalable for older aircraft.
The aircraft may have four seats but you can't fill then with adults, before putting anything in the back of a 120 take a sharp look at the W&B.
The optimum DR400 Is the 160 in terms of load/fuel burn/speed. The 180 offers better take off and climb performance, in the UK this is not too much of an issue but when you get into southern Europe and get hot and high the extra 20HP really shows.
Enjoy the 120 it is a much nicer aircraft to fly than the Cessna but the performance is more or less the same.
The braking system depends on the age as toe brakes became standard in about 1985, a retrofit kit is also avalable for older aircraft.
The aircraft may have four seats but you can't fill then with adults, before putting anything in the back of a 120 take a sharp look at the W&B.
The optimum DR400 Is the 160 in terms of load/fuel burn/speed. The 180 offers better take off and climb performance, in the UK this is not too much of an issue but when you get into southern Europe and get hot and high the extra 20HP really shows.
Enjoy the 120 it is a much nicer aircraft to fly than the Cessna but the performance is more or less the same.
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I seem to have posted about the same time as ROBIN and would agree with all he has said except for the comments about the landing gear, a properly serviced landing gear has a "ride" that is about the same as most light aircraft.
Any DR400 with soft and wallowing landing gear that suddenly transmits very hard bumps through the airframe has too much air pressure and not enough oil in the legs. These aircraft almost always sit tail low when loaded.
Any DR400 with soft and wallowing landing gear that suddenly transmits very hard bumps through the airframe has too much air pressure and not enough oil in the legs. These aircraft almost always sit tail low when loaded.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Sep 2012 at 10:43.
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A & C
I agree. Though when I spoke to a French engineer about the time of the spar AD he made the point I repeated.
Don't bang it down like you can a PA28. The basic structure is wood, after all.
I agree. Though when I spoke to a French engineer about the time of the spar AD he made the point I repeated.
Don't bang it down like you can a PA28. The basic structure is wood, after all.
I'd agree with most of the comments - it's a really nice aircraft and you'll be finding fault with most other types once you been spoilt by the DR400.
I've never had a problem with the nosewheel but I was flying well-serviced examples. You'd think it would be a fragile aircraft with all that wood, fabric and nosewheel but we've been operating a brace of them out of probably the roughest, most undulating grass strip in the UK for 20+ years and have never had a problem. Keeping the oleos adjusted correctly appears to be key.
I would reinforce the point about the load carrying capacity. You can fill them up with fuel, people and luggage and they still go very well but remember to accelerate the aircraft before trying to climb away when heavy, as you're really on the back end of the drag curve when it's just unstuck. You can feel the increase in wing loading through the controls and airframe but it's that 'feel' that makes it such a delight to fly.
I've never had a problem with the nosewheel but I was flying well-serviced examples. You'd think it would be a fragile aircraft with all that wood, fabric and nosewheel but we've been operating a brace of them out of probably the roughest, most undulating grass strip in the UK for 20+ years and have never had a problem. Keeping the oleos adjusted correctly appears to be key.
I would reinforce the point about the load carrying capacity. You can fill them up with fuel, people and luggage and they still go very well but remember to accelerate the aircraft before trying to climb away when heavy, as you're really on the back end of the drag curve when it's just unstuck. You can feel the increase in wing loading through the controls and airframe but it's that 'feel' that makes it such a delight to fly.
Last edited by FullWings; 9th Sep 2012 at 13:57. Reason: speling grama and
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Robin
While I would agree that the DR400 should not be landed hard this goes for all aircraft, the wooden structure in the adding gear area is massive and in an accident it is usually the landing gear legs Normaly fail before the wing structue ( we have a number of broken airframes that are a testament to that fact).
To my mind the thing that is likely to cause the most damage to the structure would be the continual hammering it would get from badly serviced shock struts, the post above from full wings seems to back up my opinion on the critical nature of correct servicing of the shock struts.
To my mind the thing that is likely to cause the most damage to the structure would be the continual hammering it would get from badly serviced shock struts, the post above from full wings seems to back up my opinion on the critical nature of correct servicing of the shock struts.
Last edited by A and C; 9th Sep 2012 at 18:08.
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I learned to fly on the DR400-120 and that happy experience spoiled me for many other types. What I found remarkable was that, with full landing flap, attitude really did control speed and throttle really did control rate of descent. Unlike on many other types, the two weren't coupled together. So you could set 70 knots and trim out the stick force, then achieve your landing point entirely with the throttle - and the airspeed would stay firmly nailed at 70. Closing the throttle just before the flare would achieve the sweetest of landings. Try it!
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dr 400 160
Hey all,
Finally got round to doing it and my god is it brilliant!
What people said was true....
It is faster (probably feels quicker than it actually is) and the nose down attitude compared to c152 is strange but I got used to it.
Much better response from controls (amazed me the difference) much easier to fly.
The flap lever kept getting caught on the change and my keys in my pocket as its like a handbrake! But they were very effective. Brakes on the hand i thought would be odd but its easy really when you get used to it. So much easier to trim, more feel to every control.
The differential braking could catch people out if they are a bit heavy with the control... Maybe thats what causes people to veer off? Landings were smooth and easy... Man i love it! A new lease and love has developed for flying again.... Shame my wallet hasnt grown any!
Thanks for all the advice guys and girls, appreciate it
Fly safe
Pilot lyons
Finally got round to doing it and my god is it brilliant!
What people said was true....
It is faster (probably feels quicker than it actually is) and the nose down attitude compared to c152 is strange but I got used to it.
Much better response from controls (amazed me the difference) much easier to fly.
The flap lever kept getting caught on the change and my keys in my pocket as its like a handbrake! But they were very effective. Brakes on the hand i thought would be odd but its easy really when you get used to it. So much easier to trim, more feel to every control.
The differential braking could catch people out if they are a bit heavy with the control... Maybe thats what causes people to veer off? Landings were smooth and easy... Man i love it! A new lease and love has developed for flying again.... Shame my wallet hasnt grown any!
Thanks for all the advice guys and girls, appreciate it
Fly safe
Pilot lyons
Last edited by Pilot.Lyons; 2nd Oct 2012 at 09:07.
.
No. Set the attitude with the nosewheel off the ground as soon as possible (Just like the landing attitude) let the aircraft fly itself off the ground, and allow it to accelerate to climb speed. Don't keep the nosewheel on the ground longer than you have to, the aerodynamic steering works just fine and saves hammering the gear. Please. You don't need to watch the airspeed on take-off once you have established that the ASI works, just feel the aircraft wanting to fly and keep your eyes outside. If you need to make a positive break it is because you are belting down the runway with all three wheels firmly on the ground. You can feel the transition from nosewheel steering to aerodynamic as the nose leg extends.
On take-off you need to make a positive 'break' once the speed gets to 60kts.
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and the nose down attitude compared to c152 is strange but I got used to it.
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I found the stick so much lighter than the C152/C150 yoke and more responsive. Wierd not having toe brakes but quickly got used to it and the brake handle flaps......so different from electric especially as teh seat was as far forward as it could get so flap handle not directly under the hand.
I've got to do 3 touch and go's to complete the checkride, otherwise all the handling and the unexpected PFL pulled on me went well.
Wind on the day was 310/14 which would have been fine on Runway 27 but it was closed for number painting so on 22. Nailed the glide at 70kts, looked much steeper and faster than the C152/C150 but flared a bit too early and pulled back a bit too hard and bounced it! Power in
Got told "Cessna landing, dont pull back so hard"
Booking the circuits this week or next.
I've got to do 3 touch and go's to complete the checkride, otherwise all the handling and the unexpected PFL pulled on me went well.
Wind on the day was 310/14 which would have been fine on Runway 27 but it was closed for number painting so on 22. Nailed the glide at 70kts, looked much steeper and faster than the C152/C150 but flared a bit too early and pulled back a bit too hard and bounced it! Power in
Got told "Cessna landing, dont pull back so hard"
Booking the circuits this week or next.
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Wierd not having toe brakes
brake handle flaps......so different from electric