Latest CAA prosecutions
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Are ATPL holders never prosecuted by the CAA or are they just never in the wrong?
But in general the enviroment we operate in there is less chance of screwing up. You get the odd few that bust noise and get a snotty letter and a fine but apart from that its dangerous goods and stuff like that that comes up and if the ATPL hasn't been given the correct info in the first place the system is at fault not them.
They are part of the professional club in which the professional never makes mistake. It is only the hobby pilots who screw up so the CAA's go after the hobby pilots and make an example of how the CAA's are protecting all the airliners from the menace of the infringer. The ATPL will get his knuckles tapped and allowed to continue to earn his 6 figure salary.
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Fullwings I do try and keep up but did not see a single ATPL holder in the list of prosecutions!
Now the reason I ask is that flying in class D with a service from radar an inbound schedule service did a level bust in the descent by around 2000ft and required us to take some serious voiding action as his descent continued. The result was an MOR and over the RT the pilot was instructed to report to Ops immediately on landing. Now if it had been the other way round what do you suppose may have been the result?
Now the reason I ask is that flying in class D with a service from radar an inbound schedule service did a level bust in the descent by around 2000ft and required us to take some serious voiding action as his descent continued. The result was an MOR and over the RT the pilot was instructed to report to Ops immediately on landing. Now if it had been the other way round what do you suppose may have been the result?
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They are part of the professional club in which the professional never makes mistake. It is only the hobby pilots who screw up so the CAA's go after the hobby pilots and make an example of how the CAA's are protecting all the airliners from the menace of the infringer. The ATPL will get his knuckles tapped and allowed to continue to earn his 6 figure salary.
There are certain things that we always do before every flight. In general our feel for the WX is pretty good. Some of the ATPL pilots out there would give the met office a run for there money with TAF's especially at home base.
Then there is the fact when your already flying 20-25 hours a week you really don't have to push the limits. There is always something better to do if the wx is crap or the aircraft not quite right. If you don't fly you always day one of your roster to look forward to. In fact with some the flying is only an excuse to tinker and maintain the aircraft. And you can say the wife is ugly but any nasty comments about the cub and your looking at a fight behind the hangar.
Then there is capacity and self briefing and all the little things we do which arn't formally listed anywhere like loading up the next freq by listening to the ones in front. We know whats going to happen next so the RT is never a suprise. Things coming out of the blue like an aircraft calling a mayday isn't common but something which has happened before.
We make mistakes all the time, well I do anyway but we are in the habit to check and check again. And when we do make one and its not caught there isn't confusion we know what we have to do because usually its not the first time we have seen it. Mind you we also have quite good sixth sense of when something isn't quite right either.
Even then some don't click and then the company gets a bill for 8k euro from the french for an interception.
And taking Flybe as an example Skippers are on 60-80k and FO's 20-40k thats for working up to 12 hour days with the occassional on over that starting at 4am and finishing past 12 at night (Different shifts I might add). Then 12 hours rest then back in the seat again.
I suspect the vast majority of ATPL's don't have a current SEP and the ones that do the vast majority of them renew by test because they don't make the hours requirement. Maintaining a FI usually involves loosing money on it and is only done because we enjoy instructing.
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I think the debate between commercial ops., private ops and prosecutions so far has been facile.
Its not about them and us. While we operate in the same environment, we each operate in a totally different way. On the whole commercial operators cannot afford to have pilots operating outside the "box". Its not good for their reputation or their bottom line. So of course they are going to spoon feed their crew, and of course they are going to require their crew to strictly operate within their SOPs. SOPs are partly designed to substantially reduce the risk of pilots making mistakes. Spoon feeding the crew is designed so the operation runs efficiently - why should a pilot concern himself with NOTAMs (that we all know are easy to miss, or sometimes even understand) when the company is far better employing professionals who deal with them all day long and are much less likely to make mistakes.
Given how many more hours an ATPL is in command its a hell of a commendation for a system that so obviously works and results in relatively so few "mistakes".
The private guy has two big disadvantages; not only does he have to do everything himself but he doesn't have the time in command and the experience on which to fall back. However that's the way it is, I dont see any alternative. To be fair I have always found that both the authorities and ATC recognise private pilots make mistakes and, sometimes, need all the help they can get. On the whole problems arise because pilots get out of their depth and dont ask for help or they simply choose to willfully ignore regulations of the type that you really are stupid to ignore! There is no help for the second category and just like anyone who does 100 in a 40 zone there are few excuses - accept the punishment gracefully is about all you can do.
For the others ask for help early and recognise that things are not going your way and all sorts of incidents that can so easily lead to prosecution can be avoided. Neither en route ATC or tower want the hassle of dealing with errant pilots; it is surprising just what they can line up for you when needs must, but first you need to ask.
I always reckon a good SOP is if something doesnt look or feel right ask, be it I have some doubt as to exactly where I am, or whether I need to descend for the next leg to get under the TMA, or I am struggling to establish myself on the localiser and not sure whether I was given the clearance I thought, and / or, if in doubt tell ATC what you have in mind, cynically, if nothing else, it shifts (even if not legally) some of the responsibility to them. For example I am going form X to Y and I intend to descend under the TMA and maintain 1,400 between A and B. At least they know what you are doing and if the TMA starts earlier, finishes later, or is in fact 1,000 feet, and / or your track will take you over a NOTAMed special ops zone there is a good chance they will tell you!!
Its not about them and us. While we operate in the same environment, we each operate in a totally different way. On the whole commercial operators cannot afford to have pilots operating outside the "box". Its not good for their reputation or their bottom line. So of course they are going to spoon feed their crew, and of course they are going to require their crew to strictly operate within their SOPs. SOPs are partly designed to substantially reduce the risk of pilots making mistakes. Spoon feeding the crew is designed so the operation runs efficiently - why should a pilot concern himself with NOTAMs (that we all know are easy to miss, or sometimes even understand) when the company is far better employing professionals who deal with them all day long and are much less likely to make mistakes.
Given how many more hours an ATPL is in command its a hell of a commendation for a system that so obviously works and results in relatively so few "mistakes".
The private guy has two big disadvantages; not only does he have to do everything himself but he doesn't have the time in command and the experience on which to fall back. However that's the way it is, I dont see any alternative. To be fair I have always found that both the authorities and ATC recognise private pilots make mistakes and, sometimes, need all the help they can get. On the whole problems arise because pilots get out of their depth and dont ask for help or they simply choose to willfully ignore regulations of the type that you really are stupid to ignore! There is no help for the second category and just like anyone who does 100 in a 40 zone there are few excuses - accept the punishment gracefully is about all you can do.
For the others ask for help early and recognise that things are not going your way and all sorts of incidents that can so easily lead to prosecution can be avoided. Neither en route ATC or tower want the hassle of dealing with errant pilots; it is surprising just what they can line up for you when needs must, but first you need to ask.
I always reckon a good SOP is if something doesnt look or feel right ask, be it I have some doubt as to exactly where I am, or whether I need to descend for the next leg to get under the TMA, or I am struggling to establish myself on the localiser and not sure whether I was given the clearance I thought, and / or, if in doubt tell ATC what you have in mind, cynically, if nothing else, it shifts (even if not legally) some of the responsibility to them. For example I am going form X to Y and I intend to descend under the TMA and maintain 1,400 between A and B. At least they know what you are doing and if the TMA starts earlier, finishes later, or is in fact 1,000 feet, and / or your track will take you over a NOTAMed special ops zone there is a good chance they will tell you!!
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Very true.
Also I think there is alot of the attitude of the pilot that plays a big part.
If once on the ground a phone call is made to the relevent person that starts out "Sorry" and then continues to eat humble pie for the rest of it the report of the incident tone is different.
And you have hit the nail on the head when you mentioned fessing up early. I wondered how many of the prosecutions would have not occured if a pan had been issued at an earlier point.
Never yet seen a prosecution for declaring a pan or a mayday in the UK.
Also I think there is alot of the attitude of the pilot that plays a big part.
If once on the ground a phone call is made to the relevent person that starts out "Sorry" and then continues to eat humble pie for the rest of it the report of the incident tone is different.
And you have hit the nail on the head when you mentioned fessing up early. I wondered how many of the prosecutions would have not occured if a pan had been issued at an earlier point.
Never yet seen a prosecution for declaring a pan or a mayday in the UK.
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Never yet seen a prosecution for declaring a pan or a mayday in the UK.
As PPLs there is always a tendency to try and appear and sound as outwardly professional as possible, especially to ATC, and there is the fear of being 'judged' by the professionals on the frequencies and the controllers for appearing to ask for extra help. I sometimes wonder whether this tendency is less in the US because controllers are more used PPLs in busy airspace and know that occasionally they will make mistakes through the overload that comes from single pilot flying.
Who knows, perhaps had the BHX guy asked for a delaying vector, told the controller he needed a bit more time before being cleared for the approach to configure the G1000 properly (which can sometimes take a while!) or just made ATC aware that he was getting a bit overloaded the incident may not have happened...and if it still had, the CAA may have taken a different view on prosecution.
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If he had told them he was struggling he could have got a SRA approach to 2 miles and wouldn't even need to change to tower to get his landing clearance.
All it would have taken was "Approach PAN PAN PAN xxxxx I am single crew and struggling with work load request SRA approach."
Few swear words in the radar room a second desk opened up multiple phones being grabbed to area telling them to slow things down maybe slots triggered to the regional departures. And something for the next TRUCE exercise.
Be interesting to hear from a ATC persepective what would have happened if he had done this. I certainly wouldn't believe it would have ended up in court.
All it would have taken was "Approach PAN PAN PAN xxxxx I am single crew and struggling with work load request SRA approach."
Few swear words in the radar room a second desk opened up multiple phones being grabbed to area telling them to slow things down maybe slots triggered to the regional departures. And something for the next TRUCE exercise.
Be interesting to hear from a ATC persepective what would have happened if he had done this. I certainly wouldn't believe it would have ended up in court.
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The hallmark of an amateur is he doesnt know when he has screwed up, the hallmark of a professional is he does know - and I dont use the terms in the sense of commercial pilots compared with private pilots.
The real danger therefore is when you dont have enough experience to even realise you are about to screw up! Mind you I think that is often down to the quality of training. Good training should help you identify when you are out of your depth.
The real danger therefore is when you dont have enough experience to even realise you are about to screw up! Mind you I think that is often down to the quality of training. Good training should help you identify when you are out of your depth.
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mad_jock - great post. I was thinking myself what I would have done in those circumstances and requesting an SRA seemed like a pretty good one! Also puts a tick in the box for the ATC folks too I think. Bournemouth and Cardiff are always happy if you request one so they can get the numbers in, although I do tend to telephone them beforehand to make sure I'm not going to be a pain!
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BHX when the wx is crap and busy is not the place to be requesting a SRA unless its for a valid reason.
Single crew and edging towards the over stimulated with stress is a valid reason in my book. Some may disagree though.
Single crew and edging towards the over stimulated with stress is a valid reason in my book. Some may disagree though.
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I agree.
I would hazard the primary purpose of an SRA is for when the G/S fails or there are some other technical gremlins.
Whats the difference between a mechanical failure and a human failure. If the pilot goes a bit flaky its every bit as much a good reason to request an SRA.
What are "they" going to say. A bit more training is required Sir.
There are plenty of cases where even very experienced instrument pilots have come unstuck on the approach with a touch of the leans, spatial disorientation or some such nasty. Haven't we all had it at some time, its not pleasant and if you realise the work load is getting on top of you its time to declare the human machine has thrown a wobbly!
I would hazard the primary purpose of an SRA is for when the G/S fails or there are some other technical gremlins.
Whats the difference between a mechanical failure and a human failure. If the pilot goes a bit flaky its every bit as much a good reason to request an SRA.
What are "they" going to say. A bit more training is required Sir.
There are plenty of cases where even very experienced instrument pilots have come unstuck on the approach with a touch of the leans, spatial disorientation or some such nasty. Haven't we all had it at some time, its not pleasant and if you realise the work load is getting on top of you its time to declare the human machine has thrown a wobbly!
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I've flown the latest TBM850 (1.5hrs with a factory instructor) and I can't see I would choose an SRA over flying an NDB approach using the GPS OBS mode, on autopilot.
That's assuming one knows one's avionics, of course.
That's assuming one knows one's avionics, of course.
Last edited by peterh337; 5th Sep 2012 at 20:25.
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****e into the box of tricks equals ****e out.
Over stressed pilot equals dodgy finger skills with box of tricks.
SRA there is virtually no pilot input into the approach. A huge amount of work load has now gone. Once that work load has been take away it may then be possible for the pilot to start getting back there SA and be able to get back in front of the aircraft again.
Its quite interesting watching pilots hit thier limit on appoaches. They can be quite with it until they start responding to none standard calls or if you call something but not actioned it. Thats when you know the only thing that being done is flying on the ragged edge. No spare capacity they will alot of the time still be in limits as well.
Over stressed pilot equals dodgy finger skills with box of tricks.
SRA there is virtually no pilot input into the approach. A huge amount of work load has now gone. Once that work load has been take away it may then be possible for the pilot to start getting back there SA and be able to get back in front of the aircraft again.
Its quite interesting watching pilots hit thier limit on appoaches. They can be quite with it until they start responding to none standard calls or if you call something but not actioned it. Thats when you know the only thing that being done is flying on the ragged edge. No spare capacity they will alot of the time still be in limits as well.
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I agree. Whilst I have never been there it is sanguine reading the reports and Aftermaths in Flying of instrument pilots with vast experience and heaps of hours who get behind the curve for various reasons - IFR at night with very low bases being a repeating example; those who might be alive today if they had fessed up and asked for an SRA. In fact a very good friend of mine had been instructing all day, admitted to being tired and stressed, ended up with a night sortie and so nearly ended up in the drink. There weren't to many skills lacking, but he just didn't realise that the HF were getting ahead of him and the aircraft. As he now says, he got lucky, and got away with it, very nearly didn't.
There we all go but for, and I suspect the moment we become complacent or unwilling to fess up we are making a cardinal sin. The last line of defense it maybe, but its is a bloo** good last line.
There we all go but for, and I suspect the moment we become complacent or unwilling to fess up we are making a cardinal sin. The last line of defense it maybe, but its is a bloo** good last line.
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Not really its a completely different radar and presume qualification as well.
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/f...s/PAR_2090.pdf
Wouldn't be worth the cost for the very very few times it would be needed.
Try a PAR to zero its just as easy. Pace has tried it
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/f...s/PAR_2090.pdf
Wouldn't be worth the cost for the very very few times it would be needed.
Try a PAR to zero its just as easy. Pace has tried it
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So should we be pressing for civvy airports to install PAR? If you think SRA 2-miler is easy you should try PAR to 200ft...
I am sitting at Kaunas in Lithuania waiting to fly the Citation back to uk after five day trip away.
I would recommend anyone tries a PAR as well as with a safety pilot seeing how well you do flying the ILS to the ground.
It was my experience being in a situation in a Seneca Twin with problems where I took a PAR to a 50 foot cloudbreak years ago that urges others to try it if for no more than a fun challenge.
The controllers doing the talk down were brilliant and well aware at the colour code red military base that I was not going to be visual at 200 feet.
After that just through curiousity I was interested to know whether a zero zero on the ILS was possible?
It is if you use a radar alt set at 10 15 feet for flare
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