VFR Flight Plans: Are they worth filing ?
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VFR Flight Plans: Are they worth filing ?
Based on the IOM (EGNS), I got in to the habit of filing a VFR flight plan every time I flew to the mainland, due to (approx) 50 nm Irish Sea crossing, under the assumption that "the helicopter will find me faster if I've filed a flight plan".
However, on a recent flight with an experienced ATC/Instructor as passenger, he told me "frankly, VFR flight plans aren't really worth filing. They basically get ignored by the system". As such, I must admit I've got out of the habit of filing them.
So, my question is as follows: are VFR flight plans worth filing in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter) in terms of expediting emergency response ? or are they so far down the pecking-order (compared with IFR flight plans) that they are essentially a waste of time (mine and the "system's") and it is safer to simply to remain alert and be ready to report location as accurately as possible if ever there is an in-flight emergency.
I'd appreciate an honest/frank answer, though I realise that any ATC professionals may not be willing to give such unless it is, in fact, true that VFR flight plans are (significantly) better than not -- in which case, I'll start filing them again (!)
However, on a recent flight with an experienced ATC/Instructor as passenger, he told me "frankly, VFR flight plans aren't really worth filing. They basically get ignored by the system". As such, I must admit I've got out of the habit of filing them.
So, my question is as follows: are VFR flight plans worth filing in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter) in terms of expediting emergency response ? or are they so far down the pecking-order (compared with IFR flight plans) that they are essentially a waste of time (mine and the "system's") and it is safer to simply to remain alert and be ready to report location as accurately as possible if ever there is an in-flight emergency.
I'd appreciate an honest/frank answer, though I realise that any ATC professionals may not be willing to give such unless it is, in fact, true that VFR flight plans are (significantly) better than not -- in which case, I'll start filing them again (!)
Personally I file one if doing a long crossing of something unhospitable with prolonged periods out of RT range from anybody.
Mostly that is deserts in the USA.
The only time I ever tried to file a VFR flight plan in the UK that was through R112 and it got rejected.
So no, I see no point.
G
Mostly that is deserts in the USA.
The only time I ever tried to file a VFR flight plan in the UK that was through R112 and it got rejected.
So no, I see no point.
G
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I'm sure someone must look at them. Slightly different to your post but When filing VFR flight plans for flying in France, they seem to know your coming ie. the controllers know all your details before you transmit them.
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Yes, barne_as, I agree that the filing of a flight plan certainly seems to trigger the chain of handovers such that the destination ATC is expecting you to show up. For example, in my case, Blackpool will say "we already have your details" (handed over by EGNS) etc, which is comforting when half way across the sea, but I wonder if there is any true monitoring with regards a priori, pro-active "sending out the helicopter" should a VFR flight not appear within the flight plan window -- or not (i.e, essentially ignored from that point of view) ?
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Speaking as an ex-SAR and police pilot, I'd say for your own safety (if not for ATC reasons) when operating over inhospitable terrain it makes sense to file relevant waypoints and EET's (and to stick closely to the route if possible).
However, in addition, as per the ANO, a "responsible person" should be flight following, for alerting reasons. This could be anyone of your choosing, your operations where applicable, an ATCO, a relative or friend, or someone expecting you at the arrival point.
Then you have an alerting system and a positive search start point, irrespective of how your actual VFR flight plan was dealt with in the meantime. A VFR flightplan can obviously be retrieved from the system if necessary.
There is nothing more difficult than starting a search from an area of unknown dimensions. This increases the search area exponentially and greatly reduces your chances of being found in a timely manner.
However, in addition, as per the ANO, a "responsible person" should be flight following, for alerting reasons. This could be anyone of your choosing, your operations where applicable, an ATCO, a relative or friend, or someone expecting you at the arrival point.
Then you have an alerting system and a positive search start point, irrespective of how your actual VFR flight plan was dealt with in the meantime. A VFR flightplan can obviously be retrieved from the system if necessary.
There is nothing more difficult than starting a search from an area of unknown dimensions. This increases the search area exponentially and greatly reduces your chances of being found in a timely manner.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 17th Aug 2012 at 17:01. Reason: oops, typo.
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Thanks, ShyTorque
If I read between the lines of your response correctly, is it in fact the case that filing a VFR Flight Plan does not guarantee any reliable extent of "flight following" from ATCO (?) and that I really ought to be telling someone (friend, relative, etc) the essential details about my flight (waypoints, EET) since they would be the ones who, in essence would be noticing I didn't show up around the expected time ?
Presumably an IFR Flight Plan is treated very differently (they don't need to tell a relative ! -- pro-active flight-following by ATCO (?) would ensure the helicopter is scrambled if no-show, etc).
Your point is well-taken re searching an area of unknown dimensions. I do carry a GPS-enabled emergency beacon -- but, of course, the question is whether I would be in a position to properly enable that device in an emergency etc...
Given your comments and those from the other responders, I'm still not quite sure if there is any true value in filing a VFR Flight Plan, in itself (yes, point taken about informing friend/relative etc).
If I read between the lines of your response correctly, is it in fact the case that filing a VFR Flight Plan does not guarantee any reliable extent of "flight following" from ATCO (?) and that I really ought to be telling someone (friend, relative, etc) the essential details about my flight (waypoints, EET) since they would be the ones who, in essence would be noticing I didn't show up around the expected time ?
Presumably an IFR Flight Plan is treated very differently (they don't need to tell a relative ! -- pro-active flight-following by ATCO (?) would ensure the helicopter is scrambled if no-show, etc).
Your point is well-taken re searching an area of unknown dimensions. I do carry a GPS-enabled emergency beacon -- but, of course, the question is whether I would be in a position to properly enable that device in an emergency etc...
Given your comments and those from the other responders, I'm still not quite sure if there is any true value in filing a VFR Flight Plan, in itself (yes, point taken about informing friend/relative etc).
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If I read between the lines of your response correctly, is it in fact the case that filing a VFR Flight Plan does not guarantee any reliable extent of "flight following" from ATCO (?) and that I really ought to be telling someone (friend, relative, etc) the essential details about my flight (waypoints, EET) since they would be the ones who, in essence would be noticing I didn't show up around the expected time?
The "responsible person", if not of an aviation background, should be briefed on what action to take if you become overdue. In reality, this would possibly "kick-start" the system into action more quickly. If you had also submitted an accurate, written flight plan, it would be retrieved and the route you took is then quickly available to the SAR system.
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Not being ATC qualified, I'm not in a position to make a definitive judgement on that but I think it makes sense to do whatever one can to look out for one's own safety. Obviously, if flying VFR you may choose not to get, or be unable to get in-flight following. I've had this happen a few times in the north west of UK.
The "responsible person", if not of an aviation background, should be briefed on what action to take if you become overdue. In reality, this would possibly "kick-start" the system into action more quickly. If you had also submitted an accurate, written flight plan, it would be retrieved and the route you took is then quickly available to the SAR system.
The "responsible person", if not of an aviation background, should be briefed on what action to take if you become overdue. In reality, this would possibly "kick-start" the system into action more quickly. If you had also submitted an accurate, written flight plan, it would be retrieved and the route you took is then quickly available to the SAR system.
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VFR flight plan gives you zero flight following from an ATCO.
Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.
If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.
An IFR can be just as bad.If you drop out of CAS the UK like to dump everything to do with you and if the arrival tower doesn't ask where you are and dumps the strip you are in the same position as VFR.
Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.
If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.
An IFR can be just as bad.If you drop out of CAS the UK like to dump everything to do with you and if the arrival tower doesn't ask where you are and dumps the strip you are in the same position as VFR.
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VFR flight plan gives you zero flight following from an ATCO.
Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.
If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.
Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.
If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.
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... why am I obliged to "close" the flight plan (e.g., cancel it if decide not to go) ?
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Why would you have to close a flight plan that has not been activated? If it is not activated a reasonable time after the stated departure time, it just falls out of the system.
(By contrast, presumably a no-show on an IFR plan will trigger a SAR-response etc, even without a "flight follower" i.e., ATCO are obliged to actively respond...)
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I think the only honest answer to your question is that outside the UK, then almost certainly, but inside the UK "it depends".
I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.
Also be aware that flight plans don't always work. A number of times I've arrived back across the Irish Sea, which flight plans filed, and left from a controlled airport, only for Dublin ATC to tell me on initial contact that they've no flight plan for me. (And presumably no departure message either). So in those cases even though SAR is supposed to be activted in Ireland for a non closed flight plan, nothing would have happened.
I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.
Also be aware that flight plans don't always work. A number of times I've arrived back across the Irish Sea, which flight plans filed, and left from a controlled airport, only for Dublin ATC to tell me on initial contact that they've no flight plan for me. (And presumably no departure message either). So in those cases even though SAR is supposed to be activted in Ireland for a non closed flight plan, nothing would have happened.
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A VFR flight plan is delivered only to those explicitly addressed, plus a copy goes into a "national security database" of some sort to which various agencies have access, and from where it gets fished out if you disappear.
If it is addressed to an airport where you are not landing, they will bin it, so it does not assist with getting a CAS transit.
Since in the UK Class G you can change between VFR and IFR purely inside your head, with no radio contact, there is very little point in filing VFR flight plans unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed (no pun intended).
IFR flight plans are processed via a totally different system, involving a computer in Brussels (with a backup system in Paris, I believe). The route, once validated etc, is acknowledged with an ACK message and then X minutes (usually about 600) before EOBT the flight plan is transmitted to the various endpoint and enroute IFR units. It's a very smooth system, but it is unsuitable for UK Class G low level hacking under IFR because, as I say above, nobody except the endpoints will be interested in it, so you may as well file VFR.
The above notes apply to Europe only and in some cases to UK only. In much of Europe, not the UK though, any flight plan is distributed immediately to the whole country so if you call up some ATC unit in France they can see what you are on about very quickly. The UK system is fairly tightly partitioned between the IFR/CAS sectors, and the dross flying below that, with ATC funding arrangements and other politics keeping things where they are. Countries with a nationalised ATC system tend to have things working better.
Some notes are here and here.
If it is addressed to an airport where you are not landing, they will bin it, so it does not assist with getting a CAS transit.
Since in the UK Class G you can change between VFR and IFR purely inside your head, with no radio contact, there is very little point in filing VFR flight plans unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed (no pun intended).
IFR flight plans are processed via a totally different system, involving a computer in Brussels (with a backup system in Paris, I believe). The route, once validated etc, is acknowledged with an ACK message and then X minutes (usually about 600) before EOBT the flight plan is transmitted to the various endpoint and enroute IFR units. It's a very smooth system, but it is unsuitable for UK Class G low level hacking under IFR because, as I say above, nobody except the endpoints will be interested in it, so you may as well file VFR.
The above notes apply to Europe only and in some cases to UK only. In much of Europe, not the UK though, any flight plan is distributed immediately to the whole country so if you call up some ATC unit in France they can see what you are on about very quickly. The UK system is fairly tightly partitioned between the IFR/CAS sectors, and the dross flying below that, with ATC funding arrangements and other politics keeping things where they are. Countries with a nationalised ATC system tend to have things working better.
Some notes are here and here.
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Thanks dublinpilot.
You say
which comes to me as mild shock, I must say. That cosy feeling I got when I had filed my VFR Flight Plan across the Irish Sea, safe in the knowledge that "they will scramble the helicopter if I fail to arrive" seems grossly misplaced (and that ATC/instructor was right -- VFR flight plans are essentially a waste of time in the UK at least -- see my opening message in this thread)
You say
I think the only honest answer to your question is that outside the UK, then almost certainly, but inside the UK "it depends".
I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.
I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.
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Thanks peterh337 for your comprehensive response.
I'm glad I asked this question. It has sobered me up (in a manner of speaking) about the utility or otherwise of filing VFR Flight Plans in the UK at least.
One last question about your remarks. When you said
what did you mean by
?
Are you referring to your earlier remark
?
and nothing beyond that ? In which case, it is only after someone (other than ATC) has noticed/reported that you have gone missing that they will "fish out the Flight Plan" presumably to aid in the search. However, no one in ATC on either end (of the VFR flight plan) will necessarily raise the alarm if you don't show up i.e., as remarked by dublinpilot. You are largely on your own until someone (other than ATC) raises the alarm, irrespective of the filed VFR plan...ouch.
I'm glad I asked this question. It has sobered me up (in a manner of speaking) about the utility or otherwise of filing VFR Flight Plans in the UK at least.
One last question about your remarks. When you said
there is very little point in filing VFR flight plans unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed (no pun intended).
unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed
Are you referring to your earlier remark
from where it gets fished out if you disappear.
and nothing beyond that ? In which case, it is only after someone (other than ATC) has noticed/reported that you have gone missing that they will "fish out the Flight Plan" presumably to aid in the search. However, no one in ATC on either end (of the VFR flight plan) will necessarily raise the alarm if you don't show up i.e., as remarked by dublinpilot. You are largely on your own until someone (other than ATC) raises the alarm, irrespective of the filed VFR plan...ouch.
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All true and correct, but in general if you file a VFR flight plan from say Bournemouth to Southend, to arrive at 1200Z, and by 1300Z there is no sign of you, Southend ATC will do the "obvious thing" and phone Bournemouth to see if you actually departed
In most cases the answer will be No so they yawn and bin it
But you may have just crashed somewhere... and this is where the FP has some value. Now they can raise the alarm, fish it out, and start looking for you on the filed route (or here, probably more successfully).
I would never say it has absolutely zero value, but people need to understand what it really does:
- no right to CAS transit (the FP will have been binned long before you get there)
- no improved chance of getting a CAS transit (as above)
- no improved ATC service (as above)
- no PPR or PNR function (except in rare cases)
A FP (VFR or IFR as appropriate) has to be filed when crossing international borders, and it has to be filed for all flights within some countries' airspace (Greece, Spain in CAS...).
VFR FPs also do get lost from time to time, especially if the DOF/ parameter is used to file one in advance. The reasons for that turn out to be variable.
In most cases the answer will be No so they yawn and bin it
But you may have just crashed somewhere... and this is where the FP has some value. Now they can raise the alarm, fish it out, and start looking for you on the filed route (or here, probably more successfully).
I would never say it has absolutely zero value, but people need to understand what it really does:
- no right to CAS transit (the FP will have been binned long before you get there)
- no improved chance of getting a CAS transit (as above)
- no improved ATC service (as above)
- no PPR or PNR function (except in rare cases)
A FP (VFR or IFR as appropriate) has to be filed when crossing international borders, and it has to be filed for all flights within some countries' airspace (Greece, Spain in CAS...).
VFR FPs also do get lost from time to time, especially if the DOF/ parameter is used to file one in advance. The reasons for that turn out to be variable.
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It might help to explain what exactly a flight plan is.
I'm not an ATC....just a lowly PPL, but have gotten fairly used to flight plans by now as I need them for pretty much every flight that I make. Like you the system in the UK came as a bit of a shock to me
When you file a flight plan, they get an AFTN message giving most of the details on your flight plan. (The stuff at the bottom such as life raft, life vests, survival equipment etc isn't transmitted to ATC).
ATC at your destination take this as nothing more than an intension to fly.
When you depart you get your flight plan opened/activated. All this really does as I understand it, is send a departure message to your destination airport with your take off time, and (I think) a reminder of some of your flight plan details included your estimated enroute time.
ATC at your destination now know that your intended flight is more than just an intension. They know that you've actually taken off, and they know roughly when to expect you. But that is it. They have no idea of your progress along the route, or your current location.
When you eventually arrive, they close your flight plan, which basically means that they send an arrival message to your departure airport stating your time of arrival, so that they know that you've arrived safely.
If something happens to you along the route and you divert, you are supposed to get a divert message sent (to your destination). They then know that you're not coming and bin the flight plan and departure message.
If something happens and you crash/ditch/disappear, ATC at your destination are under no obligation to do anything in the UK. However, assuming that they haven't split their coffee over everything, or ATC is closed and the airport is now uncontrolled, assuming that they have time to think ....etc etc...they should notice that your expected arrival time has come and you still haven't arrived.
I imagine that most don't get too worried at this stage, but if it goes on a bit longer, AND they notice (because they are under no obligation to notice or keep track of it) they will eventually start to suspect that you aren't arriving. They will probably start to check with ATC along your route to see if you're simply making slower progress, or to see if they can establish that you've diverted.
If all this comes to nothing they will most likely ask for S&R.
However this is all based on ATC being present, them getting your flight plan and departure message, noticing that you haven't turned up at the required time, having time to follow it up, and not having ended their day's work. They are not required to do this follow up, and therfore might not even notice that you have gone missing.
Even if they do everything like clockwork, it could be many hours after you've had a problem.
Imagine a 3h30m flight and you've problems and ditch 30 mins in. It will be another 3 hours before they are expecting you. They probably won't get too nervous for another 30 mins at least. Then they start to call around for other ATC/airports along the way...probably another hour's work, and only then do they ask S&R.
Now if your destination airport does not have ATC, then they are less likely to have your flight plan, to have received any departure message. Often in these cases, a nearby airport with ATC will get it instead. Of course these are less likely to notice anything wrong as they've no way of know that you've not turned up. They've no obligation (in the UK) to send the arrival message (because you've no obligation to close your flight plan). The airport that you've arrived at has no idea that you've actually taken off (because they don't get any departure message). It all becomes a lot looser.
Hopefully this helps you to understand the "it depends" a bit better, and to explain my comment that having ATC at your destination makes it a lot more likely that something will happen.
The other side of this is that your departure airport may well make enquiries if they get no arrival message, but probably not as they are used to things not being closed in the UK.
And even if it works, it can be many hours before anything happens.
Even outside the UK, it can take a long time. I remember one day having landed in Ireland from a internal flight, around midday, expected that my flight plan would be closed automatically because I landed at a full ATC airport (which by defination in Ireland meant that I had to have a flight plan). I forgot to turn on my phone after flying and didn't realise it until about 10pm. When I did there was a message from Dublin ATC checking to see if I'd arrived safely as my flight plan handn't been closed.
I was concerned that S&R would have been initiated as the message was from five hours earlier. When I called, to let them now that all was fine, I learnt that nothing had been activated. Perhaps if it was a cross water flight they might have been more concerned?
Anyway...I hope this is of help to you to understand what's going on.
I'm not an ATC....just a lowly PPL, but have gotten fairly used to flight plans by now as I need them for pretty much every flight that I make. Like you the system in the UK came as a bit of a shock to me
When you file a flight plan, they get an AFTN message giving most of the details on your flight plan. (The stuff at the bottom such as life raft, life vests, survival equipment etc isn't transmitted to ATC).
ATC at your destination take this as nothing more than an intension to fly.
When you depart you get your flight plan opened/activated. All this really does as I understand it, is send a departure message to your destination airport with your take off time, and (I think) a reminder of some of your flight plan details included your estimated enroute time.
ATC at your destination now know that your intended flight is more than just an intension. They know that you've actually taken off, and they know roughly when to expect you. But that is it. They have no idea of your progress along the route, or your current location.
When you eventually arrive, they close your flight plan, which basically means that they send an arrival message to your departure airport stating your time of arrival, so that they know that you've arrived safely.
If something happens to you along the route and you divert, you are supposed to get a divert message sent (to your destination). They then know that you're not coming and bin the flight plan and departure message.
If something happens and you crash/ditch/disappear, ATC at your destination are under no obligation to do anything in the UK. However, assuming that they haven't split their coffee over everything, or ATC is closed and the airport is now uncontrolled, assuming that they have time to think ....etc etc...they should notice that your expected arrival time has come and you still haven't arrived.
I imagine that most don't get too worried at this stage, but if it goes on a bit longer, AND they notice (because they are under no obligation to notice or keep track of it) they will eventually start to suspect that you aren't arriving. They will probably start to check with ATC along your route to see if you're simply making slower progress, or to see if they can establish that you've diverted.
If all this comes to nothing they will most likely ask for S&R.
However this is all based on ATC being present, them getting your flight plan and departure message, noticing that you haven't turned up at the required time, having time to follow it up, and not having ended their day's work. They are not required to do this follow up, and therfore might not even notice that you have gone missing.
Even if they do everything like clockwork, it could be many hours after you've had a problem.
Imagine a 3h30m flight and you've problems and ditch 30 mins in. It will be another 3 hours before they are expecting you. They probably won't get too nervous for another 30 mins at least. Then they start to call around for other ATC/airports along the way...probably another hour's work, and only then do they ask S&R.
Now if your destination airport does not have ATC, then they are less likely to have your flight plan, to have received any departure message. Often in these cases, a nearby airport with ATC will get it instead. Of course these are less likely to notice anything wrong as they've no way of know that you've not turned up. They've no obligation (in the UK) to send the arrival message (because you've no obligation to close your flight plan). The airport that you've arrived at has no idea that you've actually taken off (because they don't get any departure message). It all becomes a lot looser.
Hopefully this helps you to understand the "it depends" a bit better, and to explain my comment that having ATC at your destination makes it a lot more likely that something will happen.
The other side of this is that your departure airport may well make enquiries if they get no arrival message, but probably not as they are used to things not being closed in the UK.
And even if it works, it can be many hours before anything happens.
Even outside the UK, it can take a long time. I remember one day having landed in Ireland from a internal flight, around midday, expected that my flight plan would be closed automatically because I landed at a full ATC airport (which by defination in Ireland meant that I had to have a flight plan). I forgot to turn on my phone after flying and didn't realise it until about 10pm. When I did there was a message from Dublin ATC checking to see if I'd arrived safely as my flight plan handn't been closed.
I was concerned that S&R would have been initiated as the message was from five hours earlier. When I called, to let them now that all was fine, I learnt that nothing had been activated. Perhaps if it was a cross water flight they might have been more concerned?
Anyway...I hope this is of help to you to understand what's going on.
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Thank you dublinpilot and peterh337.
I think I know much better where I stand now vis-a-vis Flight plans in UK. Not very prominently !
OK. Seems the best lesson from this is to make sure one is on the ball sufficiently to get a clear MayDay call out with as accurate a position fix (plus IAS, heading, and altitude) as possible in order to trigger SAR and give them the best chance of locating you, irrespective of filing a plan or not.
Also, carrying the right kit (GPS beacon), and, if crossing water, lifejacket etc, checking it is serviceable & accessible, and knowing how to use it...
To all other responders, thanks again for your inputs.
Safe flying.
I think I know much better where I stand now vis-a-vis Flight plans in UK. Not very prominently !
OK. Seems the best lesson from this is to make sure one is on the ball sufficiently to get a clear MayDay call out with as accurate a position fix (plus IAS, heading, and altitude) as possible in order to trigger SAR and give them the best chance of locating you, irrespective of filing a plan or not.
Also, carrying the right kit (GPS beacon), and, if crossing water, lifejacket etc, checking it is serviceable & accessible, and knowing how to use it...
To all other responders, thanks again for your inputs.
Safe flying.
Last edited by Flylogical; 17th Aug 2012 at 22:12. Reason: typo
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I think what France has is a system where every flight plan goes into some central database and every ATC unit can access this immediately.
Also (I am told) every French ATCO is radar qualified which means they are allowed to view radar data, and they all seem to have access to radar screens. Radar units have a huge advantage because they can see you, so there is much less radio work for both sides. They can see your filed route so they know your intentions.
France seems to have gone for a "known traffic" environment and a relatively integrated ATC system, and this brings them obvious benefits.
But I also think this works in France due to the nature of their airspace and their GA activity. There is very little GA there, with a certain number of foreigners flying around the place, and with French pilots mostly doing short hops at low level, club to club, and the latter probably don't talk to ATC much.
In the southern UK, the main FIS is London Info which is staffed by non ATC personnel (FISOs) to save money, so they could not have access to radar data. This was changed some years ago (due to the vast number of CAS busts) and they can now see screens but are not allowed to say anything on the radio that indicates that they can see you.
Also (I am told) every French ATCO is radar qualified which means they are allowed to view radar data, and they all seem to have access to radar screens. Radar units have a huge advantage because they can see you, so there is much less radio work for both sides. They can see your filed route so they know your intentions.
France seems to have gone for a "known traffic" environment and a relatively integrated ATC system, and this brings them obvious benefits.
But I also think this works in France due to the nature of their airspace and their GA activity. There is very little GA there, with a certain number of foreigners flying around the place, and with French pilots mostly doing short hops at low level, club to club, and the latter probably don't talk to ATC much.
In the southern UK, the main FIS is London Info which is staffed by non ATC personnel (FISOs) to save money, so they could not have access to radar data. This was changed some years ago (due to the vast number of CAS busts) and they can now see screens but are not allowed to say anything on the radio that indicates that they can see you.