VFR Flight Plans: Are they worth filing ?

[BackPacker]

What makes this complicated is that a lot goes on "behind the scenes" that we don't know about.

For instance, I think (but am not sure) that most uncontrolled fields in NL will graciously close your flight plan (without telling you) after landing when they know you come from abroad or from a Dutch controlled field (so they know an FPL should be in the system). Similarly, they will graciously (without telling you) open your flight plan after your departure to foreign or a Dutch controlled field. They are not connected to the AFTN but will simply use homebriefing.nl via the internet for that.

This means that pilots do not get into the habit of closing flight plans. So they leave them open after arrival on a field that happens not to automatically close them. With predictable results.

[Steve6443]

The "best" experience I had so far was on a VFR trip from Poland to Germany via the Czech Republic. Due to weather, I couldn't cross the mountains between the Czech Republic and Germany and had to turn south to Austria to follow the danube. All was done with FIS from the start to arrival but my flight plan was never forwarded to Austria so all the time I was flying through Austria, I was missing. The extra time required made the German AIS initiate the uncertainty phase and I just arrived in time in German airspace to avoid a SAR mission. My attempts to find a passage through the obscured mountains with lots of 360s on the radar track probably didn't give them much confidence when they started investigating my whereabouts. Never seen them to happy to hear me on the radio

Had a similar experience when returning from Hungary via Austria with destination Vilshofen - however in our case, the storms were over Linz so we couldn't follow the Danube as filed but instead diverted north into Czech airspace. Lucky for us, all details were forwarded.....

Coming back to your flight, we were told that S&R is only initiated after maximum endurance - the time specified in 19E - has passed since the time of Departure, regardless of whether you are anticipated to be handed over from one controller to another - apparently because you might have had radio failure or diverted elsewhere - so it's interesting to note that they anticipated you at a certain time and were prepared to launch S&R measures because of your non-arrival, even though this scheduled arrival was probably significantly earlier than the maximum endurance time......

[achimha]

Flight plans are supposed to include your mobile phone number and after calling your filed destination aerodrome, this will be their next attempt. If I file via RocketRoute, the plan also includes RocketRoute's phone number.

Regarding closing flight plans in the air, this doesn't always work depending on the country. It used to be quite relaxed in Germany but nowadays they refuse unless you are in the traffic pattern, at which time you should be talking on another frequency. I've heard it many times on the radio that FIS refused closing a flight plan because they considered the aircraft to be too far away from its destination.

I haven't heard lately about pilots getting a bill for SAR because they forgot to close the flight plan. They have so many options these days like the mobile phone or calling the airforce which operates a country wide 3D RADAR system that is much more capable than the civilian system. What happens a lot more often these days is SAR charges because of an ELT gone wild.

[Flylogical]

mad_jock, your comment about 'Mode S' raises an interesting question: Instead of a VFR flight plan (given the uncertainties reflected in the various responses in this thread -- especially for the UK), wouldn't the digital track history (from Mode S tracking by a radar service) be the best way of estimating the position of a lost aircraft which disappeared from the radar ? Does anyone know if and for how long these digital records are retained for ready retrieval in an emergency ? For example, are they kept for minutes (not very helpful) or hours/days/weeks/months ?

[mad_jock]

Well if you look at the CAA proscutions thread.

Someone got done using the mode S signature on a 7000 squawk when not talking to any ATS.

So it must be there if they can do that.

Also to note as well scottish info has always been very pro you uploading a photo and details into G info. Apparently this gives them loads of helpful info if the worst happens.

I don't know the coverage of mode S over the UK I suspect there are huge areas especially low level which arn't covered. If you got lost in the highlands below 3k you wouldn't be picked up these days now the maritime fleet has been put to rest. In times gone past you could be at the bottom of a glen and the transponder would be going 10 to the dozen with a mil rate of interrogation, now it doesn't flash at all.

[fisbangwollop]

FLYLOGICAL

Does anyone know if and for how long these digital records are retained for ready retrieval in an emergency ? For example, are they kept for minutes (not very helpful) or hours/days/weeks/months ?

All NATS radar data is recorded and kept for a fair length of time. In an incident the tapes can be pulled pretty quickly and the data rerun. If it was the case of a missing aircraft with mode "S" that aircraft could be positively identified providing it was in radar coverage, even without mode "S" and assuming the aircraft was squawking 7000 and his point of departure and time was known that data could be followed providing the aircraft was actually within radar coverage until that contact was lost......the point of lost contact not necessary the place he crashed but the place radar coverage was lost due height etc and therefore a good place for the SAR folk to base their search options on.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I have recently carried out two different types of flights. Two were longish cross-countries and the other an IMC detail flying purposely in cloud and including IFR clearances. Having signed up to AFPEx recently I filed for all these flights (one was required and the other two over water). I must say that the whole process was seamless and I consider the fact that all the ATC units were aware of my details, route and intentions proved the value of this service. This facility, coupled with SkyDemonLight, makes the whole experience so much easier. Think back 15-20 years when nothing was free, little was available, iPads hadn't been invented and you begin to appreciate the wealth of information available today. I will tend to file rather than not in future - it's not difficult and, personally, I consider it worthwhile (even when not compulsory). FOK PS: When I went back into the flight planning office at the airfield last weekend my username was still on the computer, so it seems no one had used that particular facility for flight planning purposes in two weeks (at an 'International' airport as well!).

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Flight Plans in VFR NZ are pretty simple, even if your flying into large terminals its only an extra step.It costs me $8 to log a flight plan and i do it every time because to get anywhere in NZ you usually fly A)over water or B) over bush/mountains. I always set my SAR time no more than 30 mins over my first leg and update it enroute if i need to. i also fill up the whole enroute list with airfeilds AND waypoints, if i go down in the Tararua's (pretty rough terrain which have swallowed a few A/C) i want you to know where to start looking.

[david viewing]

The NZ system is even better than that, because they give you a squawk when you file the plan and you keep this for the whole trip. In that regard, it's a sort of FPL/Flight Following hybrid.

Presumably such a thing is not feasible in UK due to the limited number of xpndr permutations?

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by FlyingOfficerKite

I consider the fact that all the ATC units were aware of my details, route and intentions proved the value of this service.

Are you sure? I have never met an ATCO who has indicated they prepare strips for VFR flightplans transiting their area (the arrival and destination field often seem to prepare strips). These transit plans go directly to the circular filing cabinet. ATC still often do provide an excellent service with handoffs from one unit to another (passing your route and intentions along the way). I find this happens more often away from London (due to workload) and on bad days (due to the lack of others flying).

I recently transitted low level from Newcastle to Fairoaks and Scily Isles to Fairoaks, both without a CFMU plan and in both cases had an excellent service with coordinated handovers the whole way (except one free call to Faranborough due to them being too busy to coordinate the handover). I don't think a VFR plan helps or hurts in these cases.

Originally Posted by david viewing

The NZ system is even better than that, because they give you a squawk when you file the plan and you keep this for the whole trip. In that regard, it's a sort of FPL/Flight Following hybrid.

Presumably such a thing is not feasible in UK due to the limited number of xpndr permutations?

I believe it is more due to the way Europe has decided/needed to approach transponder code allocations. Because there isn't an integrated system, there are lots of allocated code ranges, each for a special purpose. Even in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a facility to easily generate UK unique codes. So even though the NY or LA will have many more aircraft in the air than the UK, the US facilities can reasonably easily allocate discrete codes (coupled with geographic and flight plan separation) to have every participating aircraft with its own code, the UK can only really do this for airways IFR flights.

[alphaalpha]

To get at the official position ATC adopts, read CAP 493 (Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1), Section 5 Chapter 3. This covers overdue action. If an aircraft which has filed a flight plan (VFR or IFR) and a departure message has been sent, fails to arrive within 30 minutes of its due time, it's pretty clear that there may be a problem and overdue action will start. It's less clear, if the pilot has phoned for PPR and given an ETA and then doesn't show up.

I work at a FIS field (there's a similar publication to CAP493). I would take seriously a no-show on an activated VFR plan and, after verifying departure and alternates, start the overdue procedure. For a flight with only a telephone ETA, I have many times checked up on a no-show at ETA+30 only to find that he had not departed, departed late, or decided to go somewhere else. I have never found such a flight to have had an accident. So, in the absence of other information, I would be reluctant to start overdue action.

Consider -- you depart on a 2.5 hour VFR flight with activated flightplan. You like to operate without a radio and, 30 minutes into the flight, you crash without speaking to anybody. It would be a further 2.5 hours before your destination field/responsible person even considered any form of overdue action. Plenty of time to die from hypothermia. Avoid this by talking to or just listening to air traffic agencies en-route.

Further consider -- if you divert due to weather or just on a whim, tell the diversion ATC that you are on a flight plan so they can report your arrival. If not on a flight plan, but having given an ETA, phone your destination field an tell them you have diverted.

OP, do read the above reference (available on the CAA web site), it will make clear what you can expect.

Alan.

[soaringhigh650]

I have never met an ATCO who has indicated they prepare strips for VFR flightplans transiting their area

Somehow they magically know your details in a lot of places such as France and Spain. When you have filed your plan and do the initial call with your call sign, they give you your discrete squawk and ask whether you are going to xxx airport.

This is totally awesome as it cuts out so much radio babble.

In fact in the UK, so much babble is to be expected because of a lack of electronic information transfer.

The controllers then had to invent a new word over the radio: "freecall", and because of the workload associated with the babble, can only give everyone a Basic (i.e. Useless) Service

[Sam Rutherford]

I work on the assumption that the moment 'they' get to the box where I entered 'V' instead of I (or X or Y), then they lose any and all interest and don't look any further.

I suspect I'm mostly correct.

Fly safe, Sam.

[Fostex]

Somehow they magically know your details in a lot of places such as France and Spain

I had the same experience recently routing VFR through Italy / France.

Filed VFR plans for all legs. Italy wasn't great, first couple of handovers they knew who we were, after that despite being told our next station had our details they didn't. Approaching the French FIR it was the equivalent of a freecall despite being told otherwise. Then on entering the French FIR the ATCOs we spoke to had our details and all handovers were smooth and babble free. French ATC an absolute pleasure to deal with.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Fostex

I had the same experience recently routing VFR through Italy / France.

Filed VFR plans for all legs. Italy wasn't great, first couple of handovers they knew who we were, after that despite being told our next station had our details they didn't. Approaching the French FIR it was the equivalent of a freecall despite being told otherwise. Then on entering the French FIR the ATCOs we spoke to had our details and all handovers were smooth and babble free. French ATC an absolute pleasure to deal with.

My comment on Enroute ATC not preparing strips was specifically directed at the UK.

My experience of VFR flight with French ATC is they seem to have a nicely joined up system that electronically passes your details down the line, even if they only have the details you give on a free call.

I am in no way arguing the UK system is good, only that I don't believe filing VFR flight plans helps (or hurts) with getting handovers vs. free calls (and certainly I wouldn't count on an enroute station starting overdue action if you hadn't contacted them - although as alpha alpha says, I would be very surprised if a manned airfield didn't start overdue action on an aircraft with a departure message that is late vs ETA)

[peterh337]

The UK ATC system is a bizzare mixture of useless, semi useless, and working bits, which nobody will have a go at sorting out because of bizzare funding issues.

The privatised ATC just makes it even more intractable.

It baffles foreign pilots a lot

[soaringhigh650]

The UK ATC system is a bizzare mixture of useless, semi useless, and working bits, which nobody will have a go at sorting out because of bizzare funding issues.

The privatised ATC just makes it even more intractable.

Funding issues? But the unit rate is already the second highest across Europe.

[peterh337]

The basic problem is that the UK system has always operated some form of cost recovery on all services provided - other than

- services which are mandatory under ICAO (which is only the FIS, now confusingly called Basic Service in the UK)

- services which are funded via other means for a specific other purpose (e.g. the LARS system, which historically existed for the military much of which historically did not have any means of navigation apart from DR and thus needed a fair bit of assistance, and is nowadays funded to keep a lid on the several hundred dangerous-category CAS busts done by GA each year)

Nobody is actually providing a service to GA in the UK, for GA.

Fairly often, some GA pilot has a moan that - on a Eurocontrol IFR (i.e. high altitude) flight - he did not get the service he expected, and fairly often someone from ATC gently points out that since he is below 2000kg he got the service he paid for Which is true...

The upshot of all this is that VFR traffic would benefit most if they expected to be wholly independent (radio nav i.e. mostly GPS, and talking to nobody enroute except a radar unit which is not too busy to provide a Traffic Service) and IFR (by that I mean on a Eurocontrol flight, as low-level IFR in Class G is de facto same as VFR in the UK) traffic needs to be happy with that they get, which is usually a good professional service, with some gotchas as mentioned, but also there is much less use for IFR in the UK than for European touring generally.

If you are IFR and > 2000kg you don't get a better service

[Artistic Intention]

"I work on the assumption that the moment 'they' get to the box where I entered 'V' instead of I (or X or Y), then they lose any and all interest and don't look any further.

I suspect I'm mostly correct. "

Yes you are mostly correct apart from flight plans being V, I (or Z or Y)

[david viewing]

The controllers then had to invent a new word over the radio: "freecall", and because of the workload associated with the babble, can only give everyone a Basic (i.e. Useless) Service

In the context of VFR FPL's I don't agree that Basic service is useless. Many of my returns to UK involve landing at a home field at a time of day when it's unattended. If I don't arrive, no-one's going to notice until next morning, or perhaps when the parking invoice goes unpaid.

Basic service gives me the confidence that someone can hear me, and I can hear them. If something happens, I've only got to press that button on the control column. Worth more than any FPL.