Too high on final

[flyinkiwi]

So you are too high on final and want to get on the correct glidepath again.

How do you do this best/what are the pros and cons?

1) Push nose down to get to the correct path again, relying on full flaps to prevent getting too fast.
2) Pull so the speed decreases and the glidpath steepens to catch the correct glidepath again.
3) Something else?

My first advice to you is what others have already said, GO AROUND! It is a very rare thing to pull a good landing out of a bad approach. You are always better off going back up into the circuit/pattern and having another go.

Secondly, anything you read here is always superseded by what your instructor tells you. Never try anything without consulting with your instructor first, or better yet, get them to demonstrate something for you before you have a go yourself.

Having said that, I shall now answer your question 3. There are sideslips, something which your instructor or school may or may not teach you. If they do not then they will have their own reasons for not teaching them that you will simply have to accept and move on. The next thing that was not mentioned is S turns. I was taught this technique during my primary training instead of slipping (which I learned after I got my PPL). The pros are that you are making coordinated turns, it is quite a fun maneuver to fly and it is quite effective because you are in effect lengthening the final approach distance without gaining airspeed whilst losing height through energy sapping draggy turns. The cons, IMO it is arguably more dangerous than slipping and can only be used where there is a clear and wide approach (i.e. not into Farmer Jims 300 meter strip surrounded by trees, tall hedgerows and power lines in a river valley). It also tends to scare the hell out of non pilot passengers so you must brief them.

[Pilot DAR]

The cons, IMO it is arguably more dangerous than slipping and can only be used where there is a clear and wide approach (i.e. not into Farmer Jims 300 meter strip surrounded by trees, tall hedgerows and power lines in a river valley). It also tends to scare the hell out of non pilot passengers so you must brief them.

Hmmm. If the surroundings of the runway environment are a factor in your decision to S turn or not, you're thinking to S turn way too low! If you are so far back on a non emergency approach that you can fix it with S turns, you can probably fix it just by pulling off the rest of the power, or adding the rest of the flap. If those won't work, and you would rather not sideslip, you have no choice but to go around. The foregoing does not apply to emergency approaches, as your choices are already rather limited. That's why you practice those regularly - right?

In my opinion, S turns are one way of probably turning a stabilized approach into a non stabilized approach. Perhaps tolerable, but a less than ideal thing to do. A sideslip keeps the approach stabilized the whole time. You can enter, intensify and recover it instantly, and maintaining your alignment with the runway centerline at all times should be assumed, or something else is wrong too.

There is a lot of chatter about how scary sideslips can be - nonsense. Yes, some 172's are placarded to "avoid" with flaps out, but this is not "prohibit". For reasons already well discussed, certain models of the 172 are a bit fussy in a full flaps sideslip, but if you're paying attention, and flying the plane, they are fine. Perhaps there are other types placarded to avoid sideslips, though I am not aware of them.

Bear in mind that sideslips are a certification requirement. every certified single has demonstrated sideslip stability during certification test flying. I sideslip everything I test fly, and have never had a problem (including 172's). The certification requirement is as follows:

Static directional and lateral stability.

(a)

(b)

So if you want to sideslip, go ahead. Do not stall while doing it, 'cause that is a spin entry, but other than that, you're fine. If your instructor has not shown you, ask. If they will not/cannot train you to do them well, you need to find another instructor. Sideslips are a necessary and basic flying skill.

[JimNtexas]

Perhaps because I learned to fly in a J-3 I find side slips to be most natural thing in the world in light aircraft.

I'm a partner in a PA-28-181 and a Cessna C-177RG.

Slips are your only option if you are high on final with full flaps in a Cherokee. 'Just push the nose down and risk an over speed' is just crazy talk!!

Cherokees slip just fine at any flap setting and any amount of rudder deflection (not that there is much rudder on these airplanes).

Slips are not the least bit dangerous in any high wing Cessna single. If you have a 40 degree model you need to aware of the possibility of some pitch movement. On a 30 degree model like our Cardinal slips are a non-issue and there is no restriction in POH.

Even though the Cardinal is super slick compared to any PA28 it is unlikely to need much more than a few seconds of slip if you are high on final, given the power of the Cessna flaps.

The only danger in slipping either airplane would be if the pilot is afraid to let the nose stay below the horizon. But that pilot is dangerous anyway.

[sevenstrokeroll]

wow...only a few mentioned the ''s turn''. so many myths regarding slips...go out and practice them at altitude and see how they work.

BUT NO ONE has mentioned doing a 360 degree turn on final to lose altitude. While one must mention this to tower as it is an unexpected maneuver, it is perfectly fine to correct a gross altitude error.

and to those who always worry about the engine quitting...well that is fine...but if you fly IFR ever, you are simply dependent upon your engine working. I might add that Lindbergh's engine worked just fine using the best technology from 85 years ago.

you might have been high due to wind changes, and Ihope you start evaluating wind using the old standby's of wind detection...cloud movement, your movement over the ground etc. good for the guy posting from stick and rudder.

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is not rocket science. Established on final with full flap and at the proper approach speed if the touch down point is moving down in the windshield go around. Yes you can sideslip and S turn or even as seven pointed out do a 360 but I have to ask why. An early assessment that the approach is not going to work should result in an overshoot and a circuit which will add only a few minutes to a flight and allow you to regain a normal and familiar flight path to a proper final approach.

The accident record is sadly full of landing accidents where too high and too fast approaches were pushed to their inevitable conclusion.......don't be "that guy"

[DeltaV]

or do engine failures only ever occur on final approach?

Of course not, but mine did

[Purzel]

Wow, thanks for all the replies!

We were in a PA28, so side-slipping would be an option (our C172 are placarded as well, but side-slipping seems to work like everywhere else). When I learned, I learned first in a PA 22 Colt, no flaps, so side-slips were/are taught off course.

I was in the plane with an instructor for my revalidation (every two years check), and he said the only way to do it would be to push the nose down. I remeber clearly another instructor telling me years ago that the most effective way would be to lower the speed below approach-speed. So, two different opinions from two different instructors.

That is why I asked here for opinions from more people and as I suspected, there is no single truth about this (apart form going around off course).

We don't use S-turns, mainly because our airfield is smack in the middle of the town and some people living there seem to be allergic to even seeing planes. We stick to our circuit very stricktly.

The only thing that makes me wonder is why neither I nor my instructor thought of side-slipping. A very effective way, I will ask the instructor the next time I see him if there was a reason for not using a side-slip.

Oh, btw, I am not a student anymore. But we all try to do things the best possible way and this just one thing where I always try to improve.

Thanks again for your replies!

[India Four Two]

I'm definitely in the side-slip camp. As SSD said, ignore the ASI and fly attitude.

I was recently doing a BFR in a Warrior in New Zealand and when downwind to land on the seal (flyinkiwi knows what this is, but for others it's the paved runway ), my instructor changed runways on me. Suddenly I was at 1000' on close-in right-base. However, with idle power, full flaps and full side-slip, we made it comfortably to the threshold.

I've side-slipped almost every light-aircraft (and all gliders) that I've ever flown, even 182s and Cardinals. Never had any problem, not even with the Cardinal, where you can get some buffet on the all-flying tail.

However, with the exception of gliders, I would never sideslip with non-pilots on board. I did it once and got some anxious looks from my passengers.

(our C172 are placarded as well, but side-slipping seems to work like everywhere else).

Purzel,

Is your 172 placarded against slipping, or is it an advisory placard?

By the way, I also learnt to fly on a Colt. A lovely little aircraft, but since the next aircraft I flew was a Chipmunk, it slipped a bit in my affections. I would love to fly one again just for old times sake.

PS I see flyinkiwi also mentioned about slips and passengers.

[Purzel]

Is your 172 placarded against slipping, or is it an advisory placard?

Hmm, now that you asked I didn't know, so I took a look at the POHs of our current C172. They don't have this entry anmore.
Flaps only up to 30°. So I probably only remeber it from a C172 we have sold already, that model had 40° flaps.
IIRC it was advisory, but I cannot check anymore.

[Flap 5]

Just come across this as I don't normally look in the Private Flying forum. My twopennyworth:

Engine idle, carb heat hot, full flap. Point at the end of the runway / landing strip or even before. As long as you can maintain below flap limiting speed you are okay. Make a double flare. The first at around 20 to 30 feet to point at your touchdown point. The second at your normal flare height. Simples.

[pulse1]

I am not a great fan of 360 degree turns on final unless you are absolutely certain there is no other traffic in the circuit.

I recently joined a busy right hand circuit with several aircraft ahead of me, one of which was a helicopter (why?). After turning final with 2 ahead, I looked left and there was a motor glider parallel with me at the same height. I just went around, which is when I discovered that my passenger had accidentally changed the frequency on the radio but that's another story.

After landing, I spoke to the pilot of the m/glider, believing that I had just not seen him ahead of me in the circuit. I discovered that he had done a 360 to the left to give him adequate spacing with the helicopter. I had just not seen him as I had not expected anyone to be effectively rejoining a right hand circuit from the left.

[flyinkiwi]

Originally Posted by India Two Four

PS I see flyinkiwi also mentioned about slips and passengers.

In actual fact I was talking about S turns, but yeah forward slips can cause non pilot passengers to freak out too.

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by pulse1

I recently joined a busy right hand circuit with several aircraft ahead of me, one of which was a helicopter (why?).

I believe helicopters have to follow the standard circuit pattern too - unless there is a special helicopter circuit or they are cleared to do something else.

At the airport I'm at (Prestwick) they "land" at a designated point in the centre of the main runway. The Navy S&R helicopters often get cleared to take off from just outside their hangar, but all others hold at the same points that fix wing do and take off from the runway. I've been in the circuit as a solo student with navy helicopters messing up their spacing in the circuit causing the controller to have to re-arrange things (he commented to be on the ground afterwards that it was the navy's fault...), and I must admit I had a snigger when the normally Glasgow based helimed Eurocopter got told off by air traffic control for trying to hold at a non-existent hold point when hover taxiing:
xxx ready for departure
no your're not - you're not at Mike
Mind you - there was snow on the ground which probably made things more difficult.

However, back to topic, if you're a helicopter driver, being too high on finals isn't likely to really be an issue...

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thoughts:

- Sideslipping a PA28 is fine

- Sideslipping a C172 is okay, it's just that some dislike it a bit.

- Going around is usually okay, but I've had the odd day when it wasn't (failing light, weather coming in...)

- Orbiting on finals is seldom okay. Manoeuvring close to the ground is a common way of killing yourself, and that non-radio straight in join the tower didn't know about will be up your backside.

- Diving most light aeroplanes is not okay, you just end up too fast. On the other hand, most older microlights and something like a Piper Cub it's fair game as the profile drag will just get rid of the excess energy for you.

- You will not get ASI or altimeter misreading whilst sideslipping in most light aeroplanes. But, know your aircraft - if there's a static on one side of the fuselage only, then it may be prone. Earlier C150s for example.

G

[goldeneaglepilot]

Genghis and PilotDar have both written some good advice.

My thoughts are that if the approach is wrong then the landing is not going to be pretty. There are lots of methods of arriving at the right height and speed. An excellent method is side slipping, however it is a method that requires practice and good instruction. Even in a C172 with 40 degree flaps its not a big deal. Never let the nose get high and its safe. Get the nose high and your not far off a spin entry.

Set the landing up when your a few miles out if your on a long final join, alter the base leg position if base or downwind join (make it wide or short to arrive on finals with the correct speed and altitude and if its an overhead join no excuse....

Having sat in a jump plane at 10000 feet with two miles on the GPS to run to the threshold (when doing a type rating) I was surprised to hear the instructor tell me to make it a straight in approach from that position. My first introduction to the fabled Sarajevo 1 alpha type approach !!

[Pace]

GEP

There are techniques for knocking off a lot of altitude quickly and getting speed back to landing but it does take skill and familiarity with the aircraft.
We have sometimes been held high maybe 15K with 7 miles to touchdown and that involves everything out including speed brakes an S descent and picking a reference point ahead of touchdown.
The idea is to go below glide and quickly arrest the descent pitching for the glide and the speed will come off fast but not one with PAX on board

Pace

[BackPacker]

but not one with PAX on board

And in VMC only I presume.

[Pace]

Of course in vmc and I would not recommend it because you are arresting a high descent rate, going below the glide and adding drag with pitch as well as having every other bit of drag out! not a situation to make a mistake : )

[bingofuel]

with 7 miles to touchdown and that involves everything out including speed brakes an S descent and picking a reference point ahead of touchdown.
The idea is to go below glide

I take it your company does not operate a stable approach policy?

[Pace]

Of course we do ! We were discussing ways of loosing speed and I chucked this in of one I would NOT recommend ; )