Strange practice of a flying instructor?
No law was broken. He was pilot in command - if the passengers swap seats in cruise (when there's no requirement to wear seat belts), then that's fine.
Endangering safety of an aircraft
137 A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an
aircraft, or any person in an aircraft.
137 A person must not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an
aircraft, or any person in an aircraft.
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I heard a story about a French Cessna 172... or was it a Robin? details hazy....but on board were four full size people...
The ENGINE FELL OFF!
They didn't die.
The two in back climbed into the front and having in this way adjusted the centre of gravity, the ensemble managed to glide to earth....
History does not mention how they arranged themselves....
The ENGINE FELL OFF!
They didn't die.
The two in back climbed into the front and having in this way adjusted the centre of gravity, the ensemble managed to glide to earth....
History does not mention how they arranged themselves....
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Dear Asker of Question:
My opinion (CFIIMEIATPMEL,737type, captain major US carrier)...
this was a dumb move...maybe not illegal, but dumb.
As an instructor, even for a DEMO ride, I wanted the student to takeoff, climb, turn, descend and land. Doing exactly what I said of course. and most could do it all with proper coaching from the instructor...
so one guy gets a takeoff, the other a landing? it wasn't a full lesson in my view...just a cheap cop out.
A PA 28 is a great little plane (watch "GOLDFINGER"), but always mention which version of the PA28 please.
Also...I would not have an observer student...the best lessons are instructor and student ...and THAT"s it!. Sure sometimes you take your best girl along for a ride...but I discourage that. some may say it saves money....but I wouldn't do it.
this was a dumb move...maybe not illegal, but dumb.
As an instructor, even for a DEMO ride, I wanted the student to takeoff, climb, turn, descend and land. Doing exactly what I said of course. and most could do it all with proper coaching from the instructor...
so one guy gets a takeoff, the other a landing? it wasn't a full lesson in my view...just a cheap cop out.
A PA 28 is a great little plane (watch "GOLDFINGER"), but always mention which version of the PA28 please.
Also...I would not have an observer student...the best lessons are instructor and student ...and THAT"s it!. Sure sometimes you take your best girl along for a ride...but I discourage that. some may say it saves money....but I wouldn't do it.
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Sod all waxing with a kilt on.
And in that respect weegie is worse than me with him being the missing link between homosapien and neanderthal in the back hair deptment. In fact I don't know the reason why he doesn't have the nickname of Chewbacca.
And in that respect weegie is worse than me with him being the missing link between homosapien and neanderthal in the back hair deptment. In fact I don't know the reason why he doesn't have the nickname of Chewbacca.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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I heard a story about a French Cessna 172... or was it a Robin? details hazy....but on board were four full size people...
Mary, quite true, but actually Miles Messenger G-AJEY in France in 1947. Boulton Paul CTP Lindsay Neale was the pilot whose skill and quick thinking (and willing pax!) saved the day.
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Apologies for the thread drift in advance...
Wasn't there a situation (maybe read 'urban myth in aviation') involving an aircraft on an air taxi detail where they ended up having to put down in a field, so the pilot asked his passengers (all 4...6... 8... of them...?) to move as far rearward as possible, with some ending up in the luggage area, to ensure he had as much 'rearward authority' during the flare as possible?
Then the story went on to mention how he was stripped of his licence, the deciding factor being that some of his passengers were obviously not wearing seatbelts/harnesses during an emergency landing?
I know you hear so much crap in aviation, but shockingly it's one of those funny industries where a lot of the wild stories either are, or have the potential to be true, so just curious!
Wasn't there a situation (maybe read 'urban myth in aviation') involving an aircraft on an air taxi detail where they ended up having to put down in a field, so the pilot asked his passengers (all 4...6... 8... of them...?) to move as far rearward as possible, with some ending up in the luggage area, to ensure he had as much 'rearward authority' during the flare as possible?
Then the story went on to mention how he was stripped of his licence, the deciding factor being that some of his passengers were obviously not wearing seatbelts/harnesses during an emergency landing?
I know you hear so much crap in aviation, but shockingly it's one of those funny industries where a lot of the wild stories either are, or have the potential to be true, so just curious!
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Mary, quite true, but actually Miles Messenger G-AJEY in France in 1947. Boulton Paul CTP Lindsay Neale was the pilot whose skill and quick thinking (and willing pax!) saved the day.
The aircraft got into a flat spin and being their only test machine the pilot got out and attempted to put his weight on the canard to break the spin.
He failed and was now too low to parachute out.
The aircraft spun onto a beach the test pilot walked away uninjured and the aircraft suffered so little damage that it was recovered and rebuilt.
Pace
So we have 2 people who have never likely been in a light airplane and you are going to have them climbing over the seats in the tightly confined space of the Pa 28 cabin 
This strikes me as a really really dumb idea. All it takes is for one of them to push the control wheel, kick the instrument panel, hit the door handle, get stuck twisted half way etc etc and you will be deeply regretting doing this
I have never done an inflight seat change in a light aircraft and think it is inadvisable under pretty much all conditions.
This strikes me as a really really dumb idea. All it takes is for one of them to push the control wheel, kick the instrument panel, hit the door handle, get stuck twisted half way etc etc and you will be deeply regretting doing this
I have never done an inflight seat change in a light aircraft and think it is inadvisable under pretty much all conditions.
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Halfbaked boy. What a stupid counter argument
Its all about the degree of risk. To me the risks of trying to swop student pilots on their first ever flight between the front and back of the aeroplane is an avoidable risk. Its a strange enviroment for the student, why spoil the enjoyment of a first flight? Why demonstrate something like this to a student? Or at the very least a potential student, after all it was a trial lesson, hopefully to let the student decide if they were going to continue and learn to fly. Its a bad example of airmanship to the extreme.
People have been killed trying to land, too...
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I ain't arguing GEP, I'm providing another input on what is a neutral situation. Landing is inherently more dangerous than teaching a couple of teenagers to swap seats... But which requires more training?
Making a tonne of metal move in such a way that it flies at high speed through the atmosphere, with our delicate fleshy bodies on board, is not the cleverest idea anybody had (evidently), but we made it risk acceptable.
Same applies here, and in fact the major reason we will hear people voicing their opinion that it isn't a good idea is psychological - it's not what people are used to, therefore they will condemn it.
The bottom line here is that nobody on this forum (presumably) was present during the briefing the instructor gave these two young guys. A good rule for 99% of activities on life is the old 'it's only as safe as you make it'. Two mobile, physically able teenagers, briefed very carefully on how to move through a one foot gap without sticking their leg backwards, under the scrutinizing eye of an experienced instructor, makes this whole deal a non-event...
... In my opinion, because we're allowed opinions aren't we GEP
edited to say - For the record, I haven't, and probably will never do this, but my reasons are more along the lines of above posters with regard to training quality/issues. My thoughts above are on the safety aspects only.
Making a tonne of metal move in such a way that it flies at high speed through the atmosphere, with our delicate fleshy bodies on board, is not the cleverest idea anybody had (evidently), but we made it risk acceptable.
Same applies here, and in fact the major reason we will hear people voicing their opinion that it isn't a good idea is psychological - it's not what people are used to, therefore they will condemn it.
The bottom line here is that nobody on this forum (presumably) was present during the briefing the instructor gave these two young guys. A good rule for 99% of activities on life is the old 'it's only as safe as you make it'. Two mobile, physically able teenagers, briefed very carefully on how to move through a one foot gap without sticking their leg backwards, under the scrutinizing eye of an experienced instructor, makes this whole deal a non-event...
... In my opinion, because we're allowed opinions aren't we GEP
edited to say - For the record, I haven't, and probably will never do this, but my reasons are more along the lines of above posters with regard to training quality/issues. My thoughts above are on the safety aspects only.
Last edited by Halfbaked_Boy; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:38.
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Half baked boy, yes we are all entitled to opinions, some of us can debate their thoughts with rational statements. How can it be safer to swop seats in flight than land to change pilots in a PA28?
Equally how can you argue that a landing is anything other than another phase of a planned flight.
Equally I have heard from someone who was present at the pre flight briefing that the instructor cut the briefing short because he thought it was "boring"...... The planned flight was to go to another airfield to do the changeover of students (one flying to the destination, the other flying back) For some reason the instructor decided to do the change over in flight.
The PA28 is a small four seater, any turbulance can have a marked effect, equally any problem with the aircraft during the changeover could have had life threatening consequences, how about the risk of accidentally kicking something whilst accidentally climbing over. It is a manageable risk and in my opinion one not worth taking.
Equally how can you argue that a landing is anything other than another phase of a planned flight.
Equally I have heard from someone who was present at the pre flight briefing that the instructor cut the briefing short because he thought it was "boring"...... The planned flight was to go to another airfield to do the changeover of students (one flying to the destination, the other flying back) For some reason the instructor decided to do the change over in flight.
The PA28 is a small four seater, any turbulance can have a marked effect, equally any problem with the aircraft during the changeover could have had life threatening consequences, how about the risk of accidentally kicking something whilst accidentally climbing over. It is a manageable risk and in my opinion one not worth taking.
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 9th Jun 2012 at 10:36.
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the Not Worth Taking statement in GEP's post is the key.
Landing, once flying, is neccessary.
Swapping seats in the air is optional.
Entering / exiting with engine running is optional.
Does the benefit justify taking the risk?
For entering/exiting with engine running, in my mind it is NO. Risk your life for the sake of a minute (the time it takes to re-start the engine after you got in)???? Yes, it is a remote risk, but a minute isn't worth it!
Swapping seats when airborne to save 200-300 pounds (say, an hour of flying)? Hey, why don't you just LAND off one approach, so it only takes 10 minutes to swap, and as a bonus you get to train to actually LAND of the approach, someting you rarely do in IR training but almost always do afterwards...
Landing, once flying, is neccessary.
Swapping seats in the air is optional.
Entering / exiting with engine running is optional.
Does the benefit justify taking the risk?
For entering/exiting with engine running, in my mind it is NO. Risk your life for the sake of a minute (the time it takes to re-start the engine after you got in)???? Yes, it is a remote risk, but a minute isn't worth it!
Swapping seats when airborne to save 200-300 pounds (say, an hour of flying)? Hey, why don't you just LAND off one approach, so it only takes 10 minutes to swap, and as a bonus you get to train to actually LAND of the approach, someting you rarely do in IR training but almost always do afterwards...
Last edited by Cobalt; 10th Jun 2012 at 18:44.
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Hmmm ...Just been out to a PA28 trying to work out who put what where when to achieve the seat swap ( & trying not to think too hard about half baked boy's
)
Bit of a struggle to say the least but maybe I'm getting old!
Seems to fall in the category of something that is possible to do but probably shouldn't be encouraged - because if your instructor can do it with you - why shouldn't your do it with your family when you get your PPL? And who's to say whether you have the skill to sort out any resulting problems?
Delicate fleshy body on board
)Bit of a struggle to say the least but maybe I'm getting old!
Seems to fall in the category of something that is possible to do but probably shouldn't be encouraged - because if your instructor can do it with you - why shouldn't your do it with your family when you get your PPL? And who's to say whether you have the skill to sort out any resulting problems?