Strange practice of a flying instructor?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Transilvania
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strange practice of a flying instructor?
Now I realise that this question at face value may appear strange (I am not a troll and this is a very serious question) The scenario leading up to this question is as below:
The instructor was taking two students (both male, late teens) for a trial lesson in a PA28, During the flight he asked the students to change seat (from front to back of aircraft) so that they could change over who was having the lesson.
My question is was this legal? and if not what sections of aviation law had been breached. Should the school report this to the CAA to protect themselves?
I have my own opinions as to the safety of such a practice, and my own thoughts on the wisdom of the instructor - no doubt others will have theirs.
Is this common practice in flying schools - no need to name and shame, just yes or no would be informative.
Thanks for your opinions on this.
YES it really did happen...
The instructor was taking two students (both male, late teens) for a trial lesson in a PA28, During the flight he asked the students to change seat (from front to back of aircraft) so that they could change over who was having the lesson.
My question is was this legal? and if not what sections of aviation law had been breached. Should the school report this to the CAA to protect themselves?
I have my own opinions as to the safety of such a practice, and my own thoughts on the wisdom of the instructor - no doubt others will have theirs.
Is this common practice in flying schools - no need to name and shame, just yes or no would be informative.
Thanks for your opinions on this.
YES it really did happen...
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its not common but not unheard of.
I have done it in the past when a PPL and his PPL mate were in the front I fell asleep in the back and the pair of prats managed to get themselves into hole of VMC with no way of getting out unless going IMC after deciding to change the route from the east coast to up the A9 mid trip, because it looked OK.
It was in a C172 and getting my fat arse into the front produced a stream of terrets strength swearing at the pair of prats and the aircraft.
Lesson learn from that though, not much point having an IR onboard if they can't get to the controls. I did consider leaning over and pattering instrument flying from the back but went for the get in the seat option. Still don't know if getting in the front was the best option.
I have done it in the past when a PPL and his PPL mate were in the front I fell asleep in the back and the pair of prats managed to get themselves into hole of VMC with no way of getting out unless going IMC after deciding to change the route from the east coast to up the A9 mid trip, because it looked OK.
It was in a C172 and getting my fat arse into the front produced a stream of terrets strength swearing at the pair of prats and the aircraft.
Lesson learn from that though, not much point having an IR onboard if they can't get to the controls. I did consider leaning over and pattering instrument flying from the back but went for the get in the seat option. Still don't know if getting in the front was the best option.
When I was a Commercial Flying Instructor years ago we often did airborne changes - perfectly safe so long as managed correctly and also saved a lot of time giving more cost effective training.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
That's nothing, really. But back in the old days, people used to do this in Cessna 152s with the second "student" lying in the baggage compartment behind the seats 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: london
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was flying a 172 many years ago and the guy in the right hand seat decided to climb into the back to retrieve a map, as he climbed over the seat back his foot slipped and kicked the right hand control yoke fully forward, he then proceeded to fly into the roof but fortunately landed in the back seat not on me.
So maybe not illegal but not a very good idea me thinks !
So maybe not illegal but not a very good idea me thinks !
We used to do it all the time, saved a hell of a lot of time when you paired up two students who were doing the same lesson. Quite easily achieved and certainly no problem.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is better to land and pull off the runway, changeover and takeoff again not just from a simplicity angle but also because the new pilot does a complete flight rather than being dropped in it!
The second problem is that some light aircraft are very small and changing around can be like an Octopus dance quite entertaining if its a girl with a short skirt not so if its some fat guy!You do run the risk of getting completely jammed which I wouldnt moan about if it was the girl with the short skirt
but would with the fat guy
Pace
The second problem is that some light aircraft are very small and changing around can be like an Octopus dance quite entertaining if its a girl with a short skirt not so if its some fat guy!You do run the risk of getting completely jammed which I wouldnt moan about if it was the girl with the short skirt
but would with the fat guyPace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jun 2012 at 12:25.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never mind skirts there would be a distinct chance of a scottish pilot dropping thier guts half way through the swap while thier arse was on the other person in the front shoulder. Then disolving into giggles as that said person starts trying to give them a dead leg.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know you Scots wear Skirts just the thought of it
Image burning my brain of MJ in a kilt trying to pull his way across in 172 shouting
BADGER!
Last edited by Dan the weegie; 8th Jun 2012 at 14:25.
It is better to land and pull off the runway, changeover and takeoff again not just from a simplicity angle but also because the new pilot does a complete flight rather than being dropped in it!
However for advance students on Instrument Rating training I see no reason why not. We used to take 3 students in the Twin Comanche/Seneca - first student would fly airways to XXX do some approaches to touch and go/go around, 2nd student does airborne change to do approaches at XXX, 3rd student does airborne change to do approaches at XXX and then airways back to base.
Given that base at that time had no ILS this meant all 3 students got to do at least one ILS each (usually more) and also a non precision approach.
The main challenge then (and I suspect now) is that if you landed to do a crew change it was challenging getting back into the system again to restart training and often resulted in delay at the holding point.
For advanced students who, within the airline context, have to get used to airborne changes, this was good training to prepare them for the future. Also they had the benefit of watching their fellow trainees perform and also learn from the debriefs etc.
Of course airborne changes have to be briefed and correctly managed but if the left hand seat was moved fully rearward and the right hand seat moved forward a tad there was never any problem changing seats.
I suppose if you have never done it before it's like going to the moon (you have to solve two problems:- how to get there and how to get back) but airborne changes in this context have been performed quite safely many times.
As a postscript there is always a risk somebody might fall over the controls when exiting or entering a pilot's seat. Another reason for covering this in training.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bob
Of course in that context you are right and I know it is a technique used a lot especially in expensive aircraft like twins.
I have done that myself both in training and giving someone a go upfront but having experienced jumping in I also know it takes a bit to get in the groove and put on a different hat to that of a passenger!!!
Its a bit like entering a cinema half way through the film
If you have to experience MJ in a kilt clambering over the top even more unsettling Especially if what they say about Scots and Kilts is true.
Pace
Of course in that context you are right and I know it is a technique used a lot especially in expensive aircraft like twins.
I have done that myself both in training and giving someone a go upfront but having experienced jumping in I also know it takes a bit to get in the groove and put on a different hat to that of a passenger!!!
Its a bit like entering a cinema half way through the film
If you have to experience MJ in a kilt clambering over the top even more unsettling
Especially if what they say about Scots and Kilts is true.Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jun 2012 at 15:19.
The info was explicit, a PA28 - FIRST LESSON, swop seats front to back.
I would not agree with this on a Trial Lesson which presumes that the students are new to flying which would carry extra hazards apart from the training aspects of putting somebody in the hot seat,
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not much serious training takes place in typical trial lessons which are more a famil or air experience flight. Taking two people and having an airborne crew changes means more airtime for the two studes, cutting a load of taxy and transit time. As long as it is properly briefed there are no downsides at this stage.
A little later when the guys are actually learning startup, taxy, takeoff, transit, RT etc then it has training value. Far beyond that when these things are second nature, for example when training beyond the PPL, there might be more value to a sortie by cutting out unnecessary items and again doing airborne crew changes. Very common in military flying training on certain aircraft types.
Always worth giving the incoming crewmember a couple of minutes in the seat to get his bearings and up to speed with what's going on before he starts aviating.
A little later when the guys are actually learning startup, taxy, takeoff, transit, RT etc then it has training value. Far beyond that when these things are second nature, for example when training beyond the PPL, there might be more value to a sortie by cutting out unnecessary items and again doing airborne crew changes. Very common in military flying training on certain aircraft types.
Always worth giving the incoming crewmember a couple of minutes in the seat to get his bearings and up to speed with what's going on before he starts aviating.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would say quite a lot happens on Trial Lessons, it sets the tone for the attitude that the student has for the rest of their training, should they take it up. It's not something I'd do by choice but never say never.
It is however significantly safer than doing a swap over with the engine still running. There were a few deaths in the last couple of years from engine running changeovers and people falling into spinning props.
Oh my dear god 
It is however significantly safer than doing a swap over with the engine still running. There were a few deaths in the last couple of years from engine running changeovers and people falling into spinning props.
If you have to experience MJ in a kilt clambering over the top even more unsettling Especially if what they say about Scots and Kilts is true.
Last edited by Dan the weegie; 8th Jun 2012 at 18:41.