How to fly IFR during the Olympics?
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How to fly IFR during the Olympics?
They are imposing a strict slot allocation system for all IFR procedures, though it should only be for procedures which connect to flights into enroute CAS (London Control).
The obvious solution - Z and Y flight plans - is going to be banned.
The bizzare thing is that e.g. a Z departure will be banned even if the VFR-IFR transition is outside UK airspace. In reality, e.g. departing the s. coast VFR, one only just reaches the ~FL075 base of CAS (SE piston, not a bizjet or an F16) by the time one enters French airspace, and even in a jet this would be no big deal, so I don't understand why Z is banned outright. Maybe it was the only way they could work it as a Eurocontrol restriction.
The upshot of this is that a lot of IFR traffic will be flying on V flight plans, probably filed on the Eurocontrol routes, and on the way out of the UK will be asking for a popup IFR clearance. This will probably work in France, where the lower airspace system is continuous FL065-FL200 and you can fly the same routes VFR FL065-FL115. But it will be "fun" elsewhere. But it will be hard on the way back to the UK, coming from possibly much further out. I would bet most countries won't entertain it.
The obvious solution - Z and Y flight plans - is going to be banned.
The bizzare thing is that e.g. a Z departure will be banned even if the VFR-IFR transition is outside UK airspace. In reality, e.g. departing the s. coast VFR, one only just reaches the ~FL075 base of CAS (SE piston, not a bizjet or an F16) by the time one enters French airspace, and even in a jet this would be no big deal, so I don't understand why Z is banned outright. Maybe it was the only way they could work it as a Eurocontrol restriction.
The upshot of this is that a lot of IFR traffic will be flying on V flight plans, probably filed on the Eurocontrol routes, and on the way out of the UK will be asking for a popup IFR clearance. This will probably work in France, where the lower airspace system is continuous FL065-FL200 and you can fly the same routes VFR FL065-FL115. But it will be "fun" elsewhere. But it will be hard on the way back to the UK, coming from possibly much further out. I would bet most countries won't entertain it.
This was discussed at the very beginning of the Olympic plans when Timothy was looking for comments on here.
It was pointed out that Y and Z flight plans are legally required for all airways departures and arrivals from airfields in the restricted zone which do not have an approved approach proceedure.
I'm not sure what was done about it.
I fear you are way too late bringing it up now.
It was pointed out that Y and Z flight plans are legally required for all airways departures and arrivals from airfields in the restricted zone which do not have an approved approach proceedure.
I'm not sure what was done about it.
I fear you are way too late bringing it up now.
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This all seems to be over the top 
I can't see how all these restrictions are necessary, what can I do from my 110kt Cessna? By the time I'm anywhere near London, they're will be a bunch of fighters on my tail 
.
Understandably there are faster aircraft that could pose a threat to the olympics, but surely the security services need to look at an average airfield, containing <150Kias cruise aircraft and chaps looking to go for a quiet local bimble and really reconsider their choices, know its not gonna happen but still a little silly I think.
Alot of money and effort which could be avoided in certain areas.. Gliders with mandatory transponders 40 miles from the games... not to mention a 2000' max alt under the LTMA
FS
I can't see how all these restrictions are necessary, what can I do from my 110kt Cessna? By the time I'm anywhere near London, they're will be a bunch of fighters on my tail .Understandably there are faster aircraft that could pose a threat to the olympics, but surely the security services need to look at an average airfield, containing <150Kias cruise aircraft and chaps looking to go for a quiet local bimble and really reconsider their choices, know its not gonna happen but still a little silly I think.
Alot of money and effort which could be avoided in certain areas.. Gliders with mandatory transponders 40 miles from the games... not to mention a 2000' max alt under the LTMA
FS
Last edited by FlyingSportsman; 7th Jun 2012 at 17:58.
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Just turn your transponders off and sneak out low
. How many times have you heard "altitude unknown", or seen the replays of the fantastic wide berths Heathrow have to force their jetliners to do when someone penetrates the A without a code? They basically can't tell what altitude you're at because radar is not very precise. Ask yourself - if radar was so precise, then surely, they wouldn't need a blanket no-fly zone, right?
I'm not saying you should do this, but I also understand it's in their interest to make you believe that they can see, hear and track everything very precisely. It's part of keeping you in check to have you fear that. My subversive nature tells me it would be nice to find out how much you could tweek the nose of the George Orwells. I'm not going to do it, but I'd certainly love to see someone else do it.
. How many times have you heard "altitude unknown", or seen the replays of the fantastic wide berths Heathrow have to force their jetliners to do when someone penetrates the A without a code? They basically can't tell what altitude you're at because radar is not very precise. Ask yourself - if radar was so precise, then surely, they wouldn't need a blanket no-fly zone, right?I'm not saying you should do this, but I also understand it's in their interest to make you believe that they can see, hear and track everything very precisely. It's part of keeping you in check to have you fear that. My subversive nature tells me it would be nice to find out how much you could tweek the nose of the George Orwells. I'm not going to do it, but I'd certainly love to see someone else do it.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 7th Jun 2012 at 18:36.
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Adam
Adam whilst a single land based radar may be incapable of providing an accurate height read out (and as you correctly state - land based radar may not see you at all at low alt) what is about to happen is somewhat out of the norm. All restricted airspace will be monitored by the military using the Air Defence radar network. There will also be several airborne radars adding to the 'picture' at any given time. In summary they will see you (do some google research of the abilities of ASTOR) it will give you a rough idea of military capabilities. If it moves - its tracked. Or as the Americans put it so well 'In god we trust. All others we watch closely'. Aghh sod it, encourage your mates to test the system. It will get me off the Xbox for a couple of hours and it's been a few months since I last fired an ASRAAM
Last edited by High_Expect; 7th Jun 2012 at 18:38.
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It was pointed out that Y and Z flight plans are legally required for all airways departures and arrivals from airfields in the restricted zone which do not have an approved approach proceedure.
However, the severe IFR slot system imposed during the olympic saga (typ. 1 or 2 IFR slots per hour) will mean the slots will be grabbed quickly by those who get in first, and any subsequent traffic will have to travel VFR.
Which is OK if you are hacking around UK Class G, or popping over to N France etc. But let's say you want to fly to Croatia and everybody has grabbed the slots at your airfield
Logically, a Z flight plan, with a changeover at say KONAN, would do it perfectly. But these are (according to the ATCO I spoke to, who ought to know what he has been told to operate) to be banned.
So the only way will be a V FP to say LFAT, and an I FP from there onwards.
On top of that we seem to have a confusion on whether the IFR slots are for any IFR flight (including e.g. IR training flights going to bang a local Class D ILS) or just for flights into London Control airspace.
The text on that has recently changed (see thread on this recently) and it appears to be the latter, which is much more sensible.
Adam whilst a single land based radar may be incapable of providing an accurate height read out
Last edited by peterh337; 7th Jun 2012 at 19:22.
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Many non phased array military radars do give height read out.
Perhaps you could ask your ATCO where this restriction is published. It doesn't appear to be in the slot coordination AIC, nor in a Supp.
essentially touch and go, then do an I from them?
Any French airport that offers that facility is going to get a lot of business
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Actions On Interception
As I studied my copy of London 2012 Airspace - Actions On Interception, and as I noted the threat that failure 'to comply ... may result in the use of lethal force', a couple of thoughts come to mind.
1. I believe it is true to say that our gallant Royal Air Force has never actually shot down an enemy aircraft since the end of WWII. It would be a very special irony if they were to make their first 'kill' in 67 years a PA28 or R22 out on a quiet 'local bimble'.
2. If that, fortunately very unlikely, tragic event should occur, would that constitute a government sanctioned death penalty without any trial? Even the 'Lockerbie Bomber' was treated more fairly than that. AND then he went home after a few years.
I wonder if High_Expect will be flying the interceptor?
I guess the real message is that the bad guys won the war some time ago, we just never noticed - and now the rest of us are putting up with the consequences.
1. I believe it is true to say that our gallant Royal Air Force has never actually shot down an enemy aircraft since the end of WWII. It would be a very special irony if they were to make their first 'kill' in 67 years a PA28 or R22 out on a quiet 'local bimble'.
2. If that, fortunately very unlikely, tragic event should occur, would that constitute a government sanctioned death penalty without any trial? Even the 'Lockerbie Bomber' was treated more fairly than that. AND then he went home after a few years.
I wonder if High_Expect will be flying the interceptor?
I guess the real message is that the bad guys won the war some time ago, we just never noticed - and now the rest of us are putting up with the consequences.
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and definitely no Z or Y flight plans will be allowed; just checked it again.
However I do wonder if Eurocontrol will be enforcing this.
However I do wonder if Eurocontrol will be enforcing this.
Last edited by peterh337; 5th Jul 2012 at 06:45.
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PBoyall
I did a flight from northern Cyprus to the uk which required a landing in mainland turkey before being allowed to proceed over Greek airspace.
The workaround was to have two flight plans and did not require a touch and go or landing !
The first flight Plan was to overhead the Turkish airport where the first flight plan closed and on the radio at 25000 feet overhead the Turkish airport they opened the second flight plan enroute,
This negated all the hassle of descending and climbing landing etc and purely required an overfly at altitude
Pace
I did a flight from northern Cyprus to the uk which required a landing in mainland turkey before being allowed to proceed over Greek airspace.
The workaround was to have two flight plans and did not require a touch and go or landing !
The first flight Plan was to overhead the Turkish airport where the first flight plan closed and on the radio at 25000 feet overhead the Turkish airport they opened the second flight plan enroute,
This negated all the hassle of descending and climbing landing etc and purely required an overfly at altitude
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th Jul 2012 at 07:36.
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I always "knew" that was possible, simply because nobody but the man in the tower is going to know what actually happened, but you do need the co-operation from the man in the tower
One could achieve the same by filing to an unmanned airport, or an airport which is closed at the relevant time, and either pre-filing the onward flight plan for an accurately estimated EOBT or getting somebody on the ground to file it at just the right time (perhaps on receipt of an SMS from you when you are about to be in the right place). You would probably have to descend to a fairly low level so that the next unit can see you climbing when you call them up.
Of course with a basically functional satellite phone data link you could just file any flight plan for yourself while you are airborne, and in principle there is nothing particularly dodgy about doing that because e.g. on a departure from a Class G airport you may not get talking to an IFR controller for say half an hour anyway, so you could do a nice tour of the countryside while they are sorting out the IFR clearance....
If I can think of these methods in the time it took me to type this..........
One could achieve the same by filing to an unmanned airport, or an airport which is closed at the relevant time, and either pre-filing the onward flight plan for an accurately estimated EOBT or getting somebody on the ground to file it at just the right time (perhaps on receipt of an SMS from you when you are about to be in the right place). You would probably have to descend to a fairly low level so that the next unit can see you climbing when you call them up.
Of course with a basically functional satellite phone data link you could just file any flight plan for yourself while you are airborne, and in principle there is nothing particularly dodgy about doing that because e.g. on a departure from a Class G airport you may not get talking to an IFR controller for say half an hour anyway, so you could do a nice tour of the countryside while they are sorting out the IFR clearance....
If I can think of these methods in the time it took me to type this..........
Pace, if you only have an Ercan exit stamp you're going to have problems with entry into the Republic of Cyprus, the legitimate side of the country. Let's hope no stamps were involved should you need to go to either of those! Chaos corner...I know Ercan don't always stamp you out.
Last edited by 500 above; 6th Jul 2012 at 13:42.
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Peter have you had a look at the Shoreham slot allocations? Are they all taken up already?
I just had a look at the website that one is supposed to check; for my home airfield, Thruxton, I was somewhat surprised to see only two per hour on most days. What I thought was weird though is that it only lists slots being available from 0700-1900 each day, ie 0800-2000 local, earlier and later than that is listed as having zero slots throughout the period. Does that mean that I literally can't file IFR before 8 o'clock in the morning or does the co-ordination only come into force at that time? I'm a bit confused and the 100+ page airspace guide hasn't really helped.
I just had a look at the website that one is supposed to check; for my home airfield, Thruxton, I was somewhat surprised to see only two per hour on most days. What I thought was weird though is that it only lists slots being available from 0700-1900 each day, ie 0800-2000 local, earlier and later than that is listed as having zero slots throughout the period. Does that mean that I literally can't file IFR before 8 o'clock in the morning or does the co-ordination only come into force at that time? I'm a bit confused and the 100+ page airspace guide hasn't really helped.
Last edited by Contacttower; 12th Jul 2012 at 09:06.
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Her is the link direct to declared capacity for the temporary IFR co-ordinated aerodromes ACL Capacity Declaration.
Aerodromes had to state their operating hours and ACL then produced the "declared capacity." For the majority of aerodromes the number stated is per hour.
Aerodromes had to state their operating hours and ACL then produced the "declared capacity." For the majority of aerodromes the number stated is per hour.