Business travel on a PPL?
I agree it's a problem Peter. I'll offer a couple of opinions.
(1) Too many instructors have never done any real A-B flying. They have probably spent years flying around the same small patch, and given how very badly they are paid, they certainly don't have the spare cash to go off on the sort of long trip you and I regularly enjoy.
(2) Flying schools are not teaching people to fly. They are teaching people to pass the test. The difference is marked and important - if they know that examiner X prefers route Y, then the school will simply not spend a students money how to fly to Z.
Not satisfactory, and probably best solved by moving away from the school model to a truer club environment where people help each other out and students or instructors actually use aeroplanes as god intended - do to fun stuff over long distances, rather than short fixed routes flyable within an hour and coming back to your start point.
G
(1) Too many instructors have never done any real A-B flying. They have probably spent years flying around the same small patch, and given how very badly they are paid, they certainly don't have the spare cash to go off on the sort of long trip you and I regularly enjoy.
(2) Flying schools are not teaching people to fly. They are teaching people to pass the test. The difference is marked and important - if they know that examiner X prefers route Y, then the school will simply not spend a students money how to fly to Z.
Not satisfactory, and probably best solved by moving away from the school model to a truer club environment where people help each other out and students or instructors actually use aeroplanes as god intended - do to fun stuff over long distances, rather than short fixed routes flyable within an hour and coming back to your start point.
G
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I would also agree with that.
My experience of my nav training 2006/7 was 29 hrs of 1hr navex's, never got lost, never gotten lost by the instructors. Being mathematically inclined, plogs were never a problem, very seldom (twice I recall) routed through controlled airspace.
Sent solo without having stalled the a/c, had to ask if I could stall the thing just to "see" it's characteristics, did them on gliders years ago so not a problem, but PPL training???
I much prefered the tailwheel differences at an FTO, "There's a PA28 just left the airfield, he is heading this way, find him, get on his tail & stay there!". Good exercise in handling, lookout, sit awareness & such but not a lot of use in landing the tailwheel! (Yes we could have shot him down).
My experience of my nav training 2006/7 was 29 hrs of 1hr navex's, never got lost, never gotten lost by the instructors. Being mathematically inclined, plogs were never a problem, very seldom (twice I recall) routed through controlled airspace.
Sent solo without having stalled the a/c, had to ask if I could stall the thing just to "see" it's characteristics, did them on gliders years ago so not a problem, but PPL training???
I much prefered the tailwheel differences at an FTO, "There's a PA28 just left the airfield, he is heading this way, find him, get on his tail & stay there!". Good exercise in handling, lookout, sit awareness & such but not a lot of use in landing the tailwheel! (Yes we could have shot him down).
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I agree with 1) but 2) is more of a mystery to me.
I know IR training is done virtually absolutely on the "examiner routes" only, but there is a reason for that: a lack of choice of destinations while keeping the IRT down to something like 2hrs, beyond which the pilot (hand flying mostly with the screens up) will be too knackered.
But is that the case in the PPL? There is usually a lot of "slack" in the 45hrs (which very few people do anyway; most take 50-70) and some bigger trips could be done. After all, it does not require any extra flying skills. Flying is the same everywhere.
Perhaps the bigger reason is the lack of any formal ground school, so what there is gets blown on the circular slide rule, and some exam preparation. Not on operational stuff like how to plan a trip somewhere.
I know IR training is done virtually absolutely on the "examiner routes" only, but there is a reason for that: a lack of choice of destinations while keeping the IRT down to something like 2hrs, beyond which the pilot (hand flying mostly with the screens up) will be too knackered.
But is that the case in the PPL? There is usually a lot of "slack" in the 45hrs (which very few people do anyway; most take 50-70) and some bigger trips could be done. After all, it does not require any extra flying skills. Flying is the same everywhere.
Perhaps the bigger reason is the lack of any formal ground school, so what there is gets blown on the circular slide rule, and some exam preparation. Not on operational stuff like how to plan a trip somewhere.
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There is a real issue with people being wary of actually using their PPL, especially to actually go anywhere for a real purpose, like business/visiting friends.
The fixation is on getting students through their PPL course, which is completely understandable given the number of students trying to get through in lowish hours.
Is there a small gap in the market for the points being questioned here.
Lastly, I wouldn't underestimate the tiredness factor. It's fine once you've been doing it a while but for a new PPL, the first few trips will be hard work.
The fixation is on getting students through their PPL course, which is completely understandable given the number of students trying to get through in lowish hours.
Is there a small gap in the market for the points being questioned here.
Lastly, I wouldn't underestimate the tiredness factor. It's fine once you've been doing it a while but for a new PPL, the first few trips will be hard work.
There is an FAA syllabus I've seen which proposes long interesting trips as a way to teach a PPL, and it makes perfect sense to me. They call it "Scenario Based Training" - a bit of googling will show some discussions on it, although I can't seem to find the original FAA document any more.
I know of only one UK school doing that - London Airsports centre offer a big chunk of the NPPL(M) touring Europe in the course of a week under the brand "Tour and Train". A lot more fun, and arguably better learning as you say.
But seems to be rather out of the comfort zone of most GA schools - and more's the pity.
G
I know of only one UK school doing that - London Airsports centre offer a big chunk of the NPPL(M) touring Europe in the course of a week under the brand "Tour and Train". A lot more fun, and arguably better learning as you say.
But seems to be rather out of the comfort zone of most GA schools - and more's the pity.
G
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Is there a small gap in the market for the points being questioned here.
The LAA run courses by instructors for pretty much anything you may ask for. Probably not for the club rented spam can driver however.
Perhaps an idea for disgruntled flying instructors to investigate.
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There is an FAA syllabus I've seen which proposes long interesting trips as a way to teach a PPL, and it makes perfect sense to me. They call it "Scenario Based Training" - a bit of googling will show some discussions on it, although I can't seem to find the original FAA document any more.
Some people in the business were unhappy about it (e.g. the DPE I had for the FAA CPL) but didn't give any good reasons. One problem I could see is that the total times were below ICAO requirements, which are something like 80-90hrs for the PPL+IR.
I certainly think the PPL should be taught (after the initial basic flying exercises) as scenario based, so you are doing actual trips.
It would make it more expensive though.
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I suppose I was lucky as my instructor was an experienced pilot who instructed for fun. He was also a friend so we did quite a few cross country trips where I soon learnt that if I really wanted to go places, doing it with a chart and stopwatch was going to be too much hard work.
As soon as possible I added an IMC and night rating which I consider essential to get any kind of dispatch reliability.
However I must agree with Peter and others on here that the real issue then was fatigue. I regularly do 3-4 hour flights and I find them surprisingly tiring even with an autopilot. The thought of then then doing any work never mind the possibility of returning the same day does not appeal.
It may work for you if your commute is 1-1.5 hours.
D.O.
As soon as possible I added an IMC and night rating which I consider essential to get any kind of dispatch reliability.
However I must agree with Peter and others on here that the real issue then was fatigue. I regularly do 3-4 hour flights and I find them surprisingly tiring even with an autopilot. The thought of then then doing any work never mind the possibility of returning the same day does not appeal.
It may work for you if your commute is 1-1.5 hours.
D.O.
The FAA was playing with that several years ago, IIRC. They found they could teach a complete PPL/IR, 100% dual (no solo), in something like 50hrs.
Some people in the business were unhappy about it (e.g. the DPE I had for the FAA CPL) but didn't give any good reasons. One problem I could see is that the total times were below ICAO requirements, which are something like 80-90hrs for the PPL+IR.
I certainly think the PPL should be taught (after the initial basic flying exercises) as scenario based, so you are doing actual trips.
It would make it more expensive though.
Some people in the business were unhappy about it (e.g. the DPE I had for the FAA CPL) but didn't give any good reasons. One problem I could see is that the total times were below ICAO requirements, which are something like 80-90hrs for the PPL+IR.
I certainly think the PPL should be taught (after the initial basic flying exercises) as scenario based, so you are doing actual trips.
It would make it more expensive though.
I really can't see the issue. I'd quite enjoy a chance to try teaching like that myself. Maybe I should - no reaon I can't deliver an NPPL(M)-->NPPL(SSEA) upgrade that way if I have a student interested. [Actually, to a large extent I already have, I just didn't call it that.]
G
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Sorry, I know the conversation has moved on! But to back track to the grass (pun unintentional!) strip issue.
Ds3 - It sounds like you do have a very challenging airfield. BUt at least it should mean that you are much more at ease with obstacles on the approach/take off than someone like me who is learning with a flat, clear approach off all runways...and an airfield landmark which sticks out a mile accross the flat lands of Lincolnshire!
My issues with the grass strip are that
A) its shorter than the tarmac (but I accept this is good for the short field take off)
b) its sure bumpy! so speeds are quciker
c) it has a nightmare threshold indicator which I nearly landed on top of
Our grass strip is within the circuit and if anything, the RT has to be even sharper as you need to sometimes cut accross traffic using 26 tarmac to use 26 grass. but that having been said, woe betide anyone who doesn't have crisp RT at our airfield anyway
I get that comment too...but from our club's pint of view...they speak from experience and my track record 
Ref INstructors and teaching.
I read this part of the thread with interest. We have a number of extremely experienced RAF instructors who are rewarded for their endeavours through SCT, and are really doing it for the fun and satisfaction of taking someone (like me) from compete novice to (hopefully!) pilot. Our club is exactly as Ghengis states:
Everyone has more fun and enjoys the thrill of flying rather than maybe the commercial sausage factory of a perhaps more usual Flying School (although I have no experience of the flying school environment, only what I read here)
We also do not ahev any formal ground school, but what we do have are instructors who will sit down and go over anything which the student wants. from my point of view we have so far discussed Met, Nav and flight planning (and Tech over a drink )that is not the end, we will undoubtedly discuss all these and more in the future.
I guess I am very lucky in having an instructor who is a very experienced pilot and also which I think is just as important, a friend. We have fun in the cockpit and after flying, yet still of course take matters seriously when necessary and when briefing/debriefing. My very first Chipmunk instructor is a very good friend of mine and incredibly experienced so I guess I have been fortunate in having the best chaps teach me who enjoy instructing more as a hobby than work or hours building. Surely we cannot be the only club with great instructors?!
Oh, and Ghengis...point taken about the PPrune name!! As old Capt Mainwaring would say "I wondered how long it would take you to spot that"
Ds3 - It sounds like you do have a very challenging airfield. BUt at least it should mean that you are much more at ease with obstacles on the approach/take off than someone like me who is learning with a flat, clear approach off all runways...and an airfield landmark which sticks out a mile accross the flat lands of Lincolnshire!
My issues with the grass strip are that
A) its shorter than the tarmac (but I accept this is good for the short field take off)
b) its sure bumpy! so speeds are quciker
c) it has a nightmare threshold indicator which I nearly landed on top of
Our grass strip is within the circuit and if anything, the RT has to be even sharper as you need to sometimes cut accross traffic using 26 tarmac to use 26 grass. but that having been said, woe betide anyone who doesn't have crisp RT at our airfield anyway
you always get the 'Be careful, don't bend it'
Ref INstructors and teaching.
I read this part of the thread with interest. We have a number of extremely experienced RAF instructors who are rewarded for their endeavours through SCT, and are really doing it for the fun and satisfaction of taking someone (like me) from compete novice to (hopefully!) pilot. Our club is exactly as Ghengis states:
a truer club environment where people help each other out and students or instructors actually use aeroplanes as god intended - do to fun stuff over long distances, rather than short fixed routes flyable within an hour and coming back to your start point.
We also do not ahev any formal ground school, but what we do have are instructors who will sit down and go over anything which the student wants. from my point of view we have so far discussed Met, Nav and flight planning (and Tech over a drink
)that is not the end, we will undoubtedly discuss all these and more in the future. I guess I am very lucky in having an instructor who is a very experienced pilot and also which I think is just as important, a friend. We have fun in the cockpit and after flying, yet still of course take matters seriously when necessary and when briefing/debriefing. My very first Chipmunk instructor is a very good friend of mine and incredibly experienced so I guess I have been fortunate in having the best chaps teach me who enjoy instructing more as a hobby than work or hours building. Surely we cannot be the only club with great instructors?!
Oh, and Ghengis...point taken about the PPrune name!! As old Capt Mainwaring would say "I wondered how long it would take you to spot that"
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My very first Chipmunk instructor
I am impressed, I tried one of those for tailwheel differences after C152. My landings were, I would say, sub optimal & mostly a commitee decision. Must try again soon.
Sounds like a good club.
Change your name to Chipmunk chick??
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Crash...
EXCELLENT club! The RAF's first flying club formed in 1960, and one of the first Club aircraft was a Tiger Moth!
Chippies...ahhh if only, I have suggested we swap our two Grobs for Chipmunks...my instructor totally agrees....
My very first trip in a light aircraft was not at my current club. It was said friend taking me up in one of his units Chippies for his currency and a bit of fun for me. BUT he did let me loop, roll and land it a couple of times (smoother than I land a Grob, and on tarmac as it happens) ...then I was totally smitten...!!
EXCELLENT club! The RAF's first flying club formed in 1960, and one of the first Club aircraft was a Tiger Moth!
Chippies...ahhh if only, I have suggested we swap our two Grobs for Chipmunks...my instructor totally agrees....
My very first trip in a light aircraft was not at my current club. It was said friend taking me up in one of his units Chippies for his currency and a bit of fun for me. BUT he did let me loop, roll and land it a couple of times (smoother than I land a Grob, and on tarmac as it happens) ...then I was totally smitten...!!
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GQ
Curiously my first flight in anything at all was at the time a fully operational RAF trainer. Chipmunk. Forget where, but somewhere near you, Safron Walden rings a bell, it was ~1954/5.
My first solo was a T21, RAF Hawkinge -56. All with the ATC. Happy days. Gliding Instructors were all ex wartime jockeys looking for something to fly.
Watching one of them "borrow" a visiting Chipmunk, screamed across the grass, pulled up into a loop & touched down at the bottom of it. The visiting pilot went white.
Curiously my first flight in anything at all was at the time a fully operational RAF trainer. Chipmunk. Forget where, but somewhere near you, Safron Walden rings a bell, it was ~1954/5.
My first solo was a T21, RAF Hawkinge -56. All with the ATC. Happy days. Gliding Instructors were all ex wartime jockeys looking for something to fly.
Watching one of them "borrow" a visiting Chipmunk, screamed across the grass, pulled up into a loop & touched down at the bottom of it. The visiting pilot went white.
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Flying on Businees Trips
DS3, I have been following this thread with interest. I tend to be more of a 'lurker' than a poster, but you might be interested in my experience. I gained my PPL this time last year from a school in Florida, in just above the minimum hours possible. I had done 5 hours training in the UK to familiarise myself with the PA-28 before I went. Once I got the brown book, I have looked on it as a license to learn.
When I got back to the UK, I had a couple more lessons to familiarise myself with the UK RT. I then had a flight with an Instructor to a short grass strip (the runways in the USA are long and hard). I then found an outfit that would let me hire an aircraft when I visit Spain and Portugal (in Portimao), and have done a few trips from there. Following this, I did a few local trips in hired aircraft, but wanted more, so I explored the possibility of flying on business trips. Since then I have flown from Gamston to Haverfordwest, and from Gamston to Bristol Filton, both times on business (the first in a hired C-152, the second in my shared C-172). I was in the fortunate position both times of not having a deadline to meet, so I could pick the days when the WX Forecast was good. One day was last September, the second was last month. Both trips stretched my capabilities, but life is boring without challenges to rise to, and experiences to savour.
For some, a few local circuits every now and then is sufficient, but I want more from my flying than this. I am currently training for an IMC (whilst I still can), and after that - well I don't know yet, but it will be more than one hour jollies in the local area ( and I am not knocking those who get their satisfaction from this).
So my advice is go for it. Once you have your PPL, the world is your lobster (to quote Mr. Daley). Let us know how you get on.
When I got back to the UK, I had a couple more lessons to familiarise myself with the UK RT. I then had a flight with an Instructor to a short grass strip (the runways in the USA are long and hard). I then found an outfit that would let me hire an aircraft when I visit Spain and Portugal (in Portimao), and have done a few trips from there. Following this, I did a few local trips in hired aircraft, but wanted more, so I explored the possibility of flying on business trips. Since then I have flown from Gamston to Haverfordwest, and from Gamston to Bristol Filton, both times on business (the first in a hired C-152, the second in my shared C-172). I was in the fortunate position both times of not having a deadline to meet, so I could pick the days when the WX Forecast was good. One day was last September, the second was last month. Both trips stretched my capabilities, but life is boring without challenges to rise to, and experiences to savour.
For some, a few local circuits every now and then is sufficient, but I want more from my flying than this. I am currently training for an IMC (whilst I still can), and after that - well I don't know yet, but it will be more than one hour jollies in the local area ( and I am not knocking those who get their satisfaction from this).
So my advice is go for it. Once you have your PPL, the world is your lobster (to quote Mr. Daley). Let us know how you get on.
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GQ, it's good fun indeed, the IAIP states the following info:
BobD, thank you for sharing your experiences, it's very useful hearing from other people who have gone throught the same thought process as me. I'm not completely sure how far I intend to take my piloting yet - for now it's just PPL and enjoy some nice summer days in the local area, taking trips to more scenic parts fo the country, and possibly the odd business trip. There are so many options over and above this, so I'm just taking it easy and seeing how things develop for now!
06/Approach 24/Take-off Tree 188
24/Approach 06/Take-off Bush 102, Pylon 246
33/Approach 15/Take-off Tree 140
Remarks: Line of HT cables 130-160 ft aal 230-261 ft amsl running north-northwest/south-southeast 0.49 nm
Remarks: Runway 06 threshold displaced by 467 m. Runway 24 threshold displaced by 259 m. Runway 33 threshold displaced by 127 m.
24/Approach 06/Take-off Bush 102, Pylon 246
33/Approach 15/Take-off Tree 140
Remarks: Line of HT cables 130-160 ft aal 230-261 ft amsl running north-northwest/south-southeast 0.49 nm
Remarks: Runway 06 threshold displaced by 467 m. Runway 24 threshold displaced by 259 m. Runway 33 threshold displaced by 127 m.
BobD, thank you for sharing your experiences, it's very useful hearing from other people who have gone throught the same thought process as me. I'm not completely sure how far I intend to take my piloting yet - for now it's just PPL and enjoy some nice summer days in the local area, taking trips to more scenic parts fo the country, and possibly the odd business trip. There are so many options over and above this, so I'm just taking it easy and seeing how things develop for now!
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I also use my aircraft for the occasional business trip, though, like BobD, they tend to be non-critical trips.
I don't think I'd use it for an important meeting though unless the weather was guaranteed as I find it's difficult not to have the return trip on your mind if there's any doubt about rain timings and so on.
Unfortunately most of my meetings currently are in central London, which is highly inconvenient by GA given that I live next to a mainline station.
I don't think I'd use it for an important meeting though unless the weather was guaranteed as I find it's difficult not to have the return trip on your mind if there's any doubt about rain timings and so on.
Unfortunately most of my meetings currently are in central London, which is highly inconvenient by GA given that I live next to a mainline station.
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Thing -ahhh, the Condor that was with the Club '70-'74 G-ASTW? I'm writing a history of our club at the mo - hence my knowledge of silly facts!
Crash1...NICE.....and a great introduction to flying! I think if I ahd landed off my loop, I think that it would not only have given m friend kittens...but also the goodly villagers of Barney somthring to think about too!
DS3, sounds like you have some interesting obstacles there... sounds like excellent training!
Crash1...NICE.....and a great introduction to flying! I think if I ahd landed off my loop, I think that it would not only have given m friend kittens...but also the goodly villagers of Barney somthring to think about too!
DS3, sounds like you have some interesting obstacles there... sounds like excellent training!
