GA Bashing From The RAF
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As JOE-FBS said,I think the BBC editing is mostly to blame.
Sq Ldr Lovett was given time for two lengthy stand-alone sentences, where he stressed that interception meant identifying the aircraft, then taking appropriate action. He also pointed out the GA aircraft were at the low-risk end of the spectrum.
Waterfall was clearly answering a question. We do not know what that question was. An anonymous voice over asks a question while we watch the wobbly sniper rifle, but were they even said on the same day, let alone in the same conversation?
The BBC edited interview with Waterfall claims that there is only one "potential threat", which is is a "bumbling GA aircraft". No sane person would go on the record with that. I suspect he didn't.
Like most TV "news" this was all about exciting pictures, and nothing to do with facts.
Sq Ldr Lovett was given time for two lengthy stand-alone sentences, where he stressed that interception meant identifying the aircraft, then taking appropriate action. He also pointed out the GA aircraft were at the low-risk end of the spectrum.
Waterfall was clearly answering a question. We do not know what that question was. An anonymous voice over asks a question while we watch the wobbly sniper rifle, but were they even said on the same day, let alone in the same conversation?
The BBC edited interview with Waterfall claims that there is only one "potential threat", which is is a "bumbling GA aircraft". No sane person would go on the record with that. I suspect he didn't.
Like most TV "news" this was all about exciting pictures, and nothing to do with facts.
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It might also be an appropriate moment to remind Sq Ldr Lovett that the RAF is hardly in a position to occupy the moral high ground when it comes to the safe operation of GA type aircraft, given the various fatal incidents of the past few years. As far as I am aware there were no fatalities in the comparable 'air experience' operations carried out by civilian flying schools over the same period, or indeed before or since.
As for the issue of editing, most official spokespeople are trained and very well versed in what, and what not, to say. Yes, they will wave the 'I was quoted out of context' flag when things blow up in their face, but in reality they know the score.
Anybody know how much this glorified two week pancake race is costing us?
As for the issue of editing, most official spokespeople are trained and very well versed in what, and what not, to say. Yes, they will wave the 'I was quoted out of context' flag when things blow up in their face, but in reality they know the score.
Anybody know how much this glorified two week pancake race is costing us?
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I agree Re: the comments about it being a typical media piece, as usual what was probably a 15-20 minute discussion has been crammed into two sentences with only the bits that sond good kept in order to satisfy the needs of the attention-span-deficient soundbite junkies of today who demand 24-hour news.
But I also agree that, more worryingly, it paints us (i.e. General Aviation) in a very bad light and makes us and our industry out to be incompetant, unprofessional, bungling, untrustworthy fools who must be tightly controlled in order to stop any bad things happening. That's not something I take lightly at all and it's obvious that's what or Government thinks of us, but now the public will start viewing us in the same light which is not good for us nor our industry.
I just find it sad that Whitehall/Westminister will happily sacrifice anything in order to make themselves and their little sports day look good, all because they're crapping it that something happens and that would make them look bad. How sad, all this just for rubbing up the egos of some political folks...
But I also agree that, more worryingly, it paints us (i.e. General Aviation) in a very bad light and makes us and our industry out to be incompetant, unprofessional, bungling, untrustworthy fools who must be tightly controlled in order to stop any bad things happening. That's not something I take lightly at all and it's obvious that's what or Government thinks of us, but now the public will start viewing us in the same light which is not good for us nor our industry.
I just find it sad that Whitehall/Westminister will happily sacrifice anything in order to make themselves and their little sports day look good, all because they're crapping it that something happens and that would make them look bad. How sad, all this just for rubbing up the egos of some political folks...
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znww5, that's a bit below the belt. You are not comparing like with like and the accidents that you are probably thinking of could equally have occured to civil aircraft.
Sitting on both sides of the fence here I think the RAF came across very badly in the interview but I am sure that is down to selective editing. To those getting awfully defensive about talk of GA infringements, you can pretty much guarantee that there will be 'non-malicious' infringements of the olympic airspace - some GA pilots get lost, some don't read NOTAMS. The risk of a malicious infringement is very, very low, but post 911 something we have to insure against. I suspect that it would not necessarily be Typhoons intercepting low speed targets, but I should probably leave it there.
Sitting on both sides of the fence here I think the RAF came across very badly in the interview but I am sure that is down to selective editing. To those getting awfully defensive about talk of GA infringements, you can pretty much guarantee that there will be 'non-malicious' infringements of the olympic airspace - some GA pilots get lost, some don't read NOTAMS. The risk of a malicious infringement is very, very low, but post 911 something we have to insure against. I suspect that it would not necessarily be Typhoons intercepting low speed targets, but I should probably leave it there.
Avoid imitations
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Why get so worked up about it? As I wrote on another thread recently, the UK is full of people of all denominations, just waiting to be outraged by something someone else said. And here we go again
Some of us in GA are long time served ex-military and have have done a lot more flying than even those RAF spokesman. But they are put in the spotlight, what do you expect them to say?
Anyway, last time I took part in a fighter afiliation exercise, they couldn't get us, even in good weather. But it looks like this time I'll be legislated out of the skies for the duration in any case.
P.s. Anyone else aware of the "doors open" speed limits for the Puma?
Some of us in GA are long time served ex-military and have have done a lot more flying than even those RAF spokesman. But they are put in the spotlight, what do you expect them to say?
Anyway, last time I took part in a fighter afiliation exercise, they couldn't get us, even in good weather. But it looks like this time I'll be legislated out of the skies for the duration in any case.
P.s. Anyone else aware of the "doors open" speed limits for the Puma?
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On a purely practical level, as Peter says, exactly how is a Typhoon supposed to "deal" with an infringement by say a C152 or R22?
Would something rotary not be able to match speeds better?
Would something rotary not be able to match speeds better?
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You lot should all remember that the boys in light blue are the only ones who could possibly fly an aeroplane! Us civvies couldnt possibly have the intelligence to fly an aeroplane and remain outside of CAS, as well as chatting on our CB radios. Mr Waterfall was once a Red Arrow pilot. Just you remember that! 
You'll see what happens when they let a grunt fly a helicopter?
Soldiers. Don't fly!"
And as for the Senior Service...... They should just stick to boats
Ah, maybe not.......
You'll see what happens when they let a grunt fly a helicopter?
Soldiers. Don't fly!"
And as for the Senior Service...... They should just stick to boats
Ah, maybe not.......
Air Cdr Waterfall did sound like he felt that GA pilots were little more than glorified plane spotters, an opinion delivered in a slightly patronising tone, as if PPLs carried on their hobby with the same regard as a bloke with a pair of binoculars at an airfield. Given a great number of GA pilots are going to be seriously inconvenienced by the whole Olympics airspace thing, a slightly less condescending air may have been appropriate.
And no, I don't get outraged at the drop of a hat. Well, not often . . .
And no, I don't get outraged at the drop of a hat. Well, not often . . .
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Seminar
I was fortunate enough to be invited to a meeting held by the CAA a week or two back discussing how GA could be helped throughout this upcoming period.
Whilst most of the attendees were of a civil nature, there were a couple or three RAF ATCO's/SATCO's there who were very aware of the capabilities of GA pilots and were in no way condescending in their tone towards GA. Quite the opposite.
They seemed to be making all the right noises and putting very constructive suggestions which I think you will find will help.
Whilst most of the attendees were of a civil nature, there were a couple or three RAF ATCO's/SATCO's there who were very aware of the capabilities of GA pilots and were in no way condescending in their tone towards GA. Quite the opposite.
They seemed to be making all the right noises and putting very constructive suggestions which I think you will find will help.
Avoid imitations
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Would something rotary not be able to match speeds better?
Other assets will be available.
You'll see what happens when they let a grunt fly a helicopter?
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I still think "White Van Man" poses more of a threat and they aren't banning him from the area around the Stadium.
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"no better"-that's the Glasgow in me coming out. Typo guys, I got my A level English!
As for the poor BBC editing, he was on video and as far as I can tell he actually said it. However, it was our military that managed to ground a brand new squizillon Nuclear Sub on the sandbank at Islay recently, and the RAF with 2 typhoons through a Microlight overhead
As for the poor BBC editing, he was on video and as far as I can tell he actually said it. However, it was our military that managed to ground a brand new squizillon Nuclear Sub on the sandbank at Islay recently, and the RAF with 2 typhoons through a Microlight overhead
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I was fortunate enough to be invited to a meeting held by the CAA a week or two back discussing how GA could be helped throughout this upcoming period.
Whilst most of the attendees were of a civil nature, there were a couple or three RAF ATCO's/SATCO's there who were very aware of the capabilities of GA pilots and were in no way condescending in their tone towards GA. Quite the opposite.
They seemed to be making all the right noises and putting very constructive suggestions which I think you will find will help.
Whilst most of the attendees were of a civil nature, there were a couple or three RAF ATCO's/SATCO's there who were very aware of the capabilities of GA pilots and were in no way condescending in their tone towards GA. Quite the opposite.
They seemed to be making all the right noises and putting very constructive suggestions which I think you will find will help.
P.S. Just wanted to add, let's not turn this into a Civvy vs. Mil argument...
Smithy
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'You are not comparing like with like and the accidents that you are probably thinking of could equally have occured to civil aircraft.'
Indeed they could have, but the fact remains that they didn't. As I understand it the aircraft were on the civil register, were carrying non-flying passengers and operating in class G on a see-and-avoid basis - I can't see where that diverges from civilian air experience ops.
With that backdrop, it seems to me that the 'bumbling GA' attitude was singularly inappropriate. Perhaps I should also say that the intention is not to bash the RAF, but to suggest an appropriate degree of humility on the part of this particular individual in light of those facts.
Indeed they could have, but the fact remains that they didn't. As I understand it the aircraft were on the civil register, were carrying non-flying passengers and operating in class G on a see-and-avoid basis - I can't see where that diverges from civilian air experience ops.
With that backdrop, it seems to me that the 'bumbling GA' attitude was singularly inappropriate. Perhaps I should also say that the intention is not to bash the RAF, but to suggest an appropriate degree of humility on the part of this particular individual in light of those facts.
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The olympic airspace is quite a populated area. I don't see how shooting down a "threat" really saves anyone and I agree it is slightly absurd to use fighter jets to intercept bumbling GA aircraft. Surely this is all a very expensive placebo-type security measure that costs more than it's worth.
I do however hope an olympic terrorist gets shot in the head by a helicopter based sniper... beacause that would be sooo sooo cool!
I do however hope an olympic terrorist gets shot in the head by a helicopter based sniper... beacause that would be sooo sooo cool!