Continuing a Flight with a failure?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had a trim failure as we launched from a strip. We could have landed straight back but chose to fly home 45 nm away where the maintenance facilities were.
The aircraft was flyable and actually trimmed for the approach but I wouldn't have gone much further
The aircraft was flyable and actually trimmed for the approach but I wouldn't have gone much further
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Up North
Age: 57
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QXC distances
Sywell Cambridge Leicester Sywell is never 150 miles is it?
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
NATIONAL PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE
Simple Single-engine Aeroplane (SSEA) Course
COURSE DESCRIPTION
Flight Training
Of the minimum 10 hours solo, a student must complete at least four hours of solo cross country flight, including one cross country of at least 185km (100 nm) in the course of which full stop landings at two aerodromes other than the aerodrome of departure shall be made.
Simple Single-engine Aeroplane (SSEA) Course
COURSE DESCRIPTION
Flight Training
Of the minimum 10 hours solo, a student must complete at least four hours of solo cross country flight, including one cross country of at least 185km (100 nm) in the course of which full stop landings at two aerodromes other than the aerodrome of departure shall be made.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: .
Age: 37
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always look on it as "do I absolutely desperately need to fly?". The fact is that unless 1) I was stuck in some backwater airstrip out in the wilds of the Arctic/a jungle/desert/wherever and absolutely had to get out, or 2) I had some other pressing life-theratening need to fly, then the answer is "no".
Interesting story mary meagher. I've heard many horror stories about aircraft rental in the states and some of the sheds/deathtraps that are palmed off to unsuspecting hourbuilders and somehow passed as airworthy...
Interesting story mary meagher. I've heard many horror stories about aircraft rental in the states and some of the sheds/deathtraps that are palmed off to unsuspecting hourbuilders and somehow passed as airworthy...
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting question which has caused some debate in the past is continuing flight on one engine in a twin.
It can end up being a hotly debated subject and is a good example of the pros and cons of continuing with any failure which in itself might not be critical.
It can end up being a hotly debated subject and is a good example of the pros and cons of continuing with any failure which in itself might not be critical.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Daventry UK
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies if someone already mentioned this but flap failure in a 172 might be a jammed motor with subsequent fire risk. Personally, I'd land back.
Regarding flying on with trim failure, this makes interesting reading.
Regarding flying on with trim failure, this makes interesting reading.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Essex, Innit
Age: 55
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me, flaps stuck down also raises the question of how this will affect my ability to cope with an engine failure (or other additional problem).
Deployed flap not only removes significantly one of the most controlled methods of increasing rate of descent at a given airspeed (I find side slipping always takes me by surprise r.o.d. wise) but will give me a glide angle that is steeper & not as familiar from PFLs increasing the undershoot risk.
Similiarly, as well as concern about the cause, other types of failure also need to be thought about in terms of cumulative effect & the individuals ability & confidence in being able to cope with failure 1 + failure 2.
Personally, as I'm sure is the same with most on here, I try & enjoy a type of flying that stretches me but does not leave me feeling vaguely uneasy for the entire flight.
Deployed flap not only removes significantly one of the most controlled methods of increasing rate of descent at a given airspeed (I find side slipping always takes me by surprise r.o.d. wise) but will give me a glide angle that is steeper & not as familiar from PFLs increasing the undershoot risk.
Similiarly, as well as concern about the cause, other types of failure also need to be thought about in terms of cumulative effect & the individuals ability & confidence in being able to cope with failure 1 + failure 2.
Personally, as I'm sure is the same with most on here, I try & enjoy a type of flying that stretches me but does not leave me feeling vaguely uneasy for the entire flight.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did the OP check the circuit breaker for the flaps I wonder ?
Depends entirely on the failure. We had a dodgy impulse spring on a mag, but I happily flew it home as I was pretty sure that once started the thing wasn't going to stop. Else it would have meant lots of hassle. I had the AP CB pop a few times on one flight for no apparent reason, no reason to cancel, just hand fly. I had an engine in a twin over mountains develop a misfire. I turned around and went home. Had fuel pressure indication drop to zero in a SEP shortly after take off. I aborted the flight and went to the pub instead after a bit of umming and ahhhing and "it is probably the gauge"ing.
(NB: The gangsters who pretended to be aircraft mechanics at the flying school where I rented the plane dismissed this as a gauge problem after a 10 second inspection. A few days later the engine stopped at the run up with FI and student onboard due to fcuked fuel pump).
Depends entirely on the failure. We had a dodgy impulse spring on a mag, but I happily flew it home as I was pretty sure that once started the thing wasn't going to stop. Else it would have meant lots of hassle. I had the AP CB pop a few times on one flight for no apparent reason, no reason to cancel, just hand fly. I had an engine in a twin over mountains develop a misfire. I turned around and went home. Had fuel pressure indication drop to zero in a SEP shortly after take off. I aborted the flight and went to the pub instead after a bit of umming and ahhhing and "it is probably the gauge"ing.
(NB: The gangsters who pretended to be aircraft mechanics at the flying school where I rented the plane dismissed this as a gauge problem after a 10 second inspection. A few days later the engine stopped at the run up with FI and student onboard due to fcuked fuel pump).
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It depends on how well you know the aircraft you fly, as well.
I had a malfunctioning gear light for awhile. I knew the front gear was locked and that the switch had just fallen out of alignment slightly. Once that was repaired (due to a cracked stiffener), all worked fine. Until, it started to go out again. The landing gear also "felt" slightly different, mushier somehow, on landings. I decided to have a look at it and as I landed at my mechanic, the front gear collapsed as they wheeled her into the hangar! Was another major structural crack hidden behind a panel that had not been seen earlier. But I had a feeling something wasn't right this second time around - sometimes they'll give you a hint.
I had a malfunctioning gear light for awhile. I knew the front gear was locked and that the switch had just fallen out of alignment slightly. Once that was repaired (due to a cracked stiffener), all worked fine. Until, it started to go out again. The landing gear also "felt" slightly different, mushier somehow, on landings. I decided to have a look at it and as I landed at my mechanic, the front gear collapsed as they wheeled her into the hangar! Was another major structural crack hidden behind a panel that had not been seen earlier. But I had a feeling something wasn't right this second time around - sometimes they'll give you a hint.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Smithy, I can't afford to rent airplanes in the UK! so had to rent a shed in the USA, but certainly true you must beware beware beware!
The stupidest things can go wrong that you might never expect. The most you can hope for is that the engine keeps running, and if its a Lycoming it probably WILL keep running! bless them!
Actually one of my most exciting moments was at Orlando Executive, in a Cessna 152. Now the Cessna is a sturdy aircraft, puts up with all sorts of abuse, neglect and contempt, but it is the nursemaid of many of us starting a flying career. Orlando Executive is quite busy, all circuits and approaches are just underneath all those tourists flying into Disney International.....
I was preflighted, prepared, approved, cleared for takeoff. Throttle moved steadily and strongly forward, the little darling responded by eagerly surging forward, and I and my seat with the classic action/reaction scenario, slid backward and departed the controls! so I aborted the takeoff. Don't do that a lot, but seemed like a good idea. Sat there shaking, obstructing the active runway. Tower enquired snappily "Something the matter, Cessna 43885?" "My seat slid back!" "Expedite your return to base" recommended the tower, so I did.
Its a common fault aparently, and worth checking out, in more than just Cessnas.
The stupidest things can go wrong that you might never expect. The most you can hope for is that the engine keeps running, and if its a Lycoming it probably WILL keep running! bless them!
Actually one of my most exciting moments was at Orlando Executive, in a Cessna 152. Now the Cessna is a sturdy aircraft, puts up with all sorts of abuse, neglect and contempt, but it is the nursemaid of many of us starting a flying career. Orlando Executive is quite busy, all circuits and approaches are just underneath all those tourists flying into Disney International.....
I was preflighted, prepared, approved, cleared for takeoff. Throttle moved steadily and strongly forward, the little darling responded by eagerly surging forward, and I and my seat with the classic action/reaction scenario, slid backward and departed the controls! so I aborted the takeoff. Don't do that a lot, but seemed like a good idea. Sat there shaking, obstructing the active runway. Tower enquired snappily "Something the matter, Cessna 43885?" "My seat slid back!" "Expedite your return to base" recommended the tower, so I did.
Its a common fault aparently, and worth checking out, in more than just Cessnas.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: .
Age: 37
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep the migrating seat problem was a well-known gotcha in Cessnas of yore and was AD'd, should all be sorted now. I heard that the modern Cessnas have the seat rails from the Caravan which apparently are much beefier.
I've had it once, fortunately I was flying with another pilot, who heard "You have controlllllllll" as I shot towards the back of the aeroplane.
I was once asked as a certifying engineer to approve the design of an aeroplane which had a seat rail design substantially the same as the usual Cessnas. I refused to approve it until they'd added a small cheap mod to put a backup strap along the floor so that once the seat was latched, the pilot could simply tighten the strap up - so if the pins went, the seat was incapable of sliding backwards.
When I explained the Cessna history, and showed that the total parts on the aeroplane would cost about a fiver, the company were quite happy. To date, the aeroplane's never had a problem!
G
I was once asked as a certifying engineer to approve the design of an aeroplane which had a seat rail design substantially the same as the usual Cessnas. I refused to approve it until they'd added a small cheap mod to put a backup strap along the floor so that once the seat was latched, the pilot could simply tighten the strap up - so if the pins went, the seat was incapable of sliding backwards.
When I explained the Cessna history, and showed that the total parts on the aeroplane would cost about a fiver, the company were quite happy. To date, the aeroplane's never had a problem!
G
Had the seat problem happen on a Caravelle. Brief pitch up before the PIC released the controls and FO took over. Not fun.
Re flaps,
locked up, I'd fly it home or to the next maintenance if practicable, that is if the maintenance is based on field of the increased runway lenght I'll need. Most SEP's are very easily flyable flaps up.
partially extended such as in take off position it would strongly depend on the distance to fly. 90% of the time it's RTB, if it's a 50 mile leg to homebase where the engineering is, I'd probably go on.
Re RTB:If you're in Italy, think again
might become expensive. Which might lead someone to NOT RTB and crash. That is why Italy is off my list for now.
Re flaps,
locked up, I'd fly it home or to the next maintenance if practicable, that is if the maintenance is based on field of the increased runway lenght I'll need. Most SEP's are very easily flyable flaps up.
partially extended such as in take off position it would strongly depend on the distance to fly. 90% of the time it's RTB, if it's a 50 mile leg to homebase where the engineering is, I'd probably go on.
Re RTB:If you're in Italy, think again
might become expensive. Which might lead someone to NOT RTB and crash. That is why Italy is off my list for now.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for a bit of a discussion, how many of you would continue a flight with a failure
I'm not an instructor but if I were I would probably do the latter.
It's one thing to carefully consider the consequences, such as the additional fuel burn at lower speed/high drag, and the possibility of damage to flap attachments & motor, and then make the decision to fly the aircraft to a maintenance base. But it's quite another thing to continue a flight when a problem suddenly appears.
(And I wonder if the student ever consulted the POH to see if it had anything to say about it.)
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends who the student was and there reasoning behind why they did it.
There isn't a right or wrong answer to be honest. Personally I would pull the cb and carry on thinking heap of crap wish it was a tommy.
A 16 year old who couldn't account for themselves would get an earful more to batter some PIC skills into them.
But say a mature student who had at least thought about what was wrong and made an informed decision along with the effects of the condition would get debriefed and thats about it.
Its quite a good exercise to be honest to stimulate the student to think about what if's. Perfect for a bad wx day sitting in the briefing room.
There isn't a right or wrong answer to be honest. Personally I would pull the cb and carry on thinking heap of crap wish it was a tommy.
A 16 year old who couldn't account for themselves would get an earful more to batter some PIC skills into them.
But say a mature student who had at least thought about what was wrong and made an informed decision along with the effects of the condition would get debriefed and thats about it.
Its quite a good exercise to be honest to stimulate the student to think about what if's. Perfect for a bad wx day sitting in the briefing room.
The trouble is it's hard to think of and through all the possible failure modes while in the air.
A few years back I did a very long trip. On the outward leg, Palo Alto to Denver, I flew high (FL200) and noticed that I had just a little bit less boost than I expected - the throttle was pushed in a little further. (On the TR182 the second half of the throttle movement is actually gradually closing the wastegate).
I didn't worry about it, I figured the rather complicated linkage must be out of adjustment. On the ground in Denver I took the cowling off, but the linkage is both complicated and well hidden and I couldn't see anything obviously wrong.
The journey home was in several stages. At each stage I was getting just a little less boost. Finally in Lancaster (fuel/lunch stop) I had a mechanic take a look at it. Ouch! It had nothing to do with the linkage. The locknut on the turbo impeller had come off and was gradually chewing up the aluminium impeller. By now there was very little left.
Had I known that, I would certainly not have been flying over the Rockies at 2000' AGL!
A few years back I did a very long trip. On the outward leg, Palo Alto to Denver, I flew high (FL200) and noticed that I had just a little bit less boost than I expected - the throttle was pushed in a little further. (On the TR182 the second half of the throttle movement is actually gradually closing the wastegate).
I didn't worry about it, I figured the rather complicated linkage must be out of adjustment. On the ground in Denver I took the cowling off, but the linkage is both complicated and well hidden and I couldn't see anything obviously wrong.
The journey home was in several stages. At each stage I was getting just a little less boost. Finally in Lancaster (fuel/lunch stop) I had a mechanic take a look at it. Ouch! It had nothing to do with the linkage. The locknut on the turbo impeller had come off and was gradually chewing up the aluminium impeller. By now there was very little left.
Had I known that, I would certainly not have been flying over the Rockies at 2000' AGL!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: england
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
N5296s,
That is exactly the sort of failure mode I am talking about. An excellent example of a seemingly innocuous fault that later manifests itself as somthing far more sinister!
The worst fault I had to deal with inflight was a rough running engine at night. I had been to Flagler county airport along with 2 other pilots, each of us in a c150. We landed after a short flight from ormond beach, and stopped for tea at hijackers cafe ( I can highly reccomend the chicken kabobs!
).. After which, we decided to fly up the coast to St Augustine, about a 25 min flight.
During the Pre-take off power check, I got rough running on the right mag, so following the training I had, I did a slightly lean power run to clear the fouled plug, which worked a treat, and restored full power & smooth running.
We took off, and about 5 mins into the leg, my engine started running rough again, which for a newly qualified ppl at night, is quite worrying! Switching to the left only mag cured it, but I immediatly diverted back to Ormond beach, and landed without incident.
In the morning, I spoke to the mechanic, who said it was simply a worn plug, but to me it made sense to return to base rarther than press on over dark, unfamiliar terrain with no real need to continue the flight, which was simply hour building...
That is exactly the sort of failure mode I am talking about. An excellent example of a seemingly innocuous fault that later manifests itself as somthing far more sinister!
The worst fault I had to deal with inflight was a rough running engine at night. I had been to Flagler county airport along with 2 other pilots, each of us in a c150. We landed after a short flight from ormond beach, and stopped for tea at hijackers cafe ( I can highly reccomend the chicken kabobs!
).. After which, we decided to fly up the coast to St Augustine, about a 25 min flight. During the Pre-take off power check, I got rough running on the right mag, so following the training I had, I did a slightly lean power run to clear the fouled plug, which worked a treat, and restored full power & smooth running.
We took off, and about 5 mins into the leg, my engine started running rough again, which for a newly qualified ppl at night, is quite worrying! Switching to the left only mag cured it, but I immediatly diverted back to Ormond beach, and landed without incident.
In the morning, I spoke to the mechanic, who said it was simply a worn plug, but to me it made sense to return to base rarther than press on over dark, unfamiliar terrain with no real need to continue the flight, which was simply hour building...
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a difference between having a fault with you one and only power plant and having the flaps refuse to come up.
Coming home with the flaps isolated via pulling the CB is fair game in my book.
Doing anything with a rough running or "something not right" with your only engine is a completely different kettle of fish.
Coming home with the flaps isolated via pulling the CB is fair game in my book.
Doing anything with a rough running or "something not right" with your only engine is a completely different kettle of fish.
Moderator
I was flying with my wife in the mighty C-150, down through Virginia, many years ago. On the radio, I heard a Coast Guard C-130 Hercules reporting an engine failure, while they were returning to their base. This did not seem too concerning to anyone. Then their base went below limits, so they would divert to Roanoke - Hey, that's where we were headed!
As we both worked our way toward the same airport, the Herc pilot's voice took a whole new tone of alarm, he declared an emergency, reporting he'd just lost a second engine. He sounded really scared on the radio. A lot of paniced chatter happened over the following five or so minutes....
He landed a minute before me, and the reason for his alarm became obvious to me as he taxiied across in front of me....
It appears that number 2 would not feather after it quit!
(Try as I might, Photobucket refuses to resize this photo - sorry!)
As we both worked our way toward the same airport, the Herc pilot's voice took a whole new tone of alarm, he declared an emergency, reporting he'd just lost a second engine. He sounded really scared on the radio. A lot of paniced chatter happened over the following five or so minutes....
He landed a minute before me, and the reason for his alarm became obvious to me as he taxiied across in front of me....
It appears that number 2 would not feather after it quit!
(Try as I might, Photobucket refuses to resize this photo - sorry!)
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 3rd Mar 2012 at 16:59.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nasty... I wonder what the cause was.
Exactly, which is why I was suprised that flying a 747 from the USA to the UK with one engine having shredded itself during takeoff was a procedure (a) approved by the UK CAA and (b) one which the PIC was happy with.
Perhaps he would have been sacked if he failed to comply with the approved company procedure?
An excellent example of a seemingly innocuous fault that later manifests itself as something far more sinister!
Perhaps he would have been sacked if he failed to comply with the approved company procedure?