Continuing a Flight with a failure?
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Continuing a Flight with a failure?
Just for a bit of a discussion, how many of you would continue a flight with a failure that meant you could not operate a major item? On another forum, one chap posted up this, talking about qualifying cross country flights :
"Mine was Sywell, Cambridge, Leicester, Sywell. Remember taxiing out behind a C130 from Marshall's thinking "Oh f.ck what am I doing here" LOL
Took off and then couldn't get the flaps up... Then, rather than abort, flew the rest at VFE."
Now, as a low hours (96hrs) PPL, and a professional aircraft engineer, this strikes me as a fairly bad idea, not so much in the flying with the flaps deployed for an extended period, as of course they are designed to be used up to VFE, but insomuch as that losing control of a major control surface with no indication as to why would be worring to me, and continuing a lengthy flight is a bit odd, when the option to land back immediatly and rectify the problem is available?
"Mine was Sywell, Cambridge, Leicester, Sywell. Remember taxiing out behind a C130 from Marshall's thinking "Oh f.ck what am I doing here" LOL
Took off and then couldn't get the flaps up... Then, rather than abort, flew the rest at VFE."
Now, as a low hours (96hrs) PPL, and a professional aircraft engineer, this strikes me as a fairly bad idea, not so much in the flying with the flaps deployed for an extended period, as of course they are designed to be used up to VFE, but insomuch as that losing control of a major control surface with no indication as to why would be worring to me, and continuing a lengthy flight is a bit odd, when the option to land back immediatly and rectify the problem is available?
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If nothing else, it's going to muck up the calculations since the cruise airspeed will be reduced, plus the extra drag will increase fuel burn. Both of these will increase the overall fuel required, which, depending on the aircraft might lead to a marginal situation.
Best to land back as a precaution, take a proper look at the aircraft, call the school and take their advice if it can't be fixed.
Best to land back as a precaution, take a proper look at the aircraft, call the school and take their advice if it can't be fixed.
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Flying at VFE? Good for hour building.... 
But that's about all. RTB would make more sense to me, depending on the issue. Or fly to the nearest maintenance base/longest runway, again, depending on the issue.
But that's about all. RTB would make more sense to me, depending on the issue. Or fly to the nearest maintenance base/longest runway, again, depending on the issue.
It depends upon what's failed, and where I'm going.
20 miles with flaps stuck down, I'd land at whichever had the best maintenance facilities. Flaps stuck up? - I'd do the flight in most cases, but certainly favour landing where I could get maintenance support.
Radio failure? Depends where I'm flying (through and to), but I'd not cancel many intra-national flights for a radio failure. International I have done, and would do again.
Primary controls (aileron, rudder, elevator), any restriction I'm landing as soon as possible.
Trimmer? Depends what trimmed and how badly / in what position it failed.
Doors and windows? Depends?
G
20 miles with flaps stuck down, I'd land at whichever had the best maintenance facilities. Flaps stuck up? - I'd do the flight in most cases, but certainly favour landing where I could get maintenance support.
Radio failure? Depends where I'm flying (through and to), but I'd not cancel many intra-national flights for a radio failure. International I have done, and would do again.
Primary controls (aileron, rudder, elevator), any restriction I'm landing as soon as possible.
Trimmer? Depends what trimmed and how badly / in what position it failed.
Doors and windows? Depends?
G
One of the taught techniques for poor weather is 'slow, safe cruise' which is a medium flap setting and a reduced speed. The slower speed gives you more time to see and react to what is ahead, and the flap deployment will give you a greater margin over the stall, and give a lower nose attitude improving forward visibility a the lower speed.
So all you did was fly your leg in a slow safe cruise configuration. However I would suggest that flying at say 10 kts below Vfe would be kinder to the flap attachments and linkages.
Re the 150 mile , comment, I think it refers to the comment re a qualifying cross country which should be 150 nm and 2 intermediate landings
So all you did was fly your leg in a slow safe cruise configuration. However I would suggest that flying at say 10 kts below Vfe would be kinder to the flap attachments and linkages.
Re the 150 mile , comment, I think it refers to the comment re a qualifying cross country which should be 150 nm and 2 intermediate landings
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Sywell Cambridge Leicester Sywell is never 150 miles is it?
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
Remember taxiing out behind a C130 from Marshall's
As far as continuing with a failure goes, my view is much the same as Genghis, though we are both pretty experienced and some failures a pilot with low hours might get worried over we might be just considering a minor annoyance.
I would also go with BFs suggestion of Vfe -10, at Vfe it only needs a lapse in concentration or an unexpected updraft and you are at Vfe +10.
Edited to say
Re the 150 mile , comment, I think it refers to the comment re a qualifying cross country which should be 150 nm and 2 intermediate landings
Of course, should have picked up on that
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Bingo,
The point I was making is that flying with an aircraft in a selected configuration is fine, flying it in a configuration due to an unknown failure over an extended time, with the option to easily RTB is perhaps not the best display of airmanship?
The point I was making is that flying with an aircraft in a selected configuration is fine, flying it in a configuration due to an unknown failure over an extended time, with the option to easily RTB is perhaps not the best display of airmanship?
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thing,
I flew the same route doing my QXC - the leg from Leicester to Sywell is normally via DTY, which still gives only about 127 NM. Probs another via in there somewhere
edit: I lied, mine was Tollerton, not Leicester!
Sywell Cambridge Leicester Sywell is never 150 miles is it?
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
Edit: Just checked on Skydemon, it's 107 miles. Bit odd.
edit: I lied, mine was Tollerton, not Leicester!
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flaps stuck down, I'd land at whichever had the best maintenance facilities
Point taken Kengineer. Probably depends on how well you know the aircraft. Is it an electrical failure on say a cessna with little chance of the flaps moving on their own accord, or could it be a mechanical fault with the chance of an uncommanded flap retraction?
Either way, I think I would do some fault diagnosis and handling tests at altitude before an immediate return as the last thing you want would be an unexpected , uncommanded flap retraction at 50 ft on the approach!
Either way, I think I would do some fault diagnosis and handling tests at altitude before an immediate return as the last thing you want would be an unexpected , uncommanded flap retraction at 50 ft on the approach!
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In the case of the flaps example, the answer would depend on my view of possible assymetric flap situation, which would probably be lethal.
On the TB20, it "cannot" happen because there is a shaft that joins the two together.
On a short flight, say 200nm, and at low altitudes, say below FL100, I would probably fly on, but it does depend on various factors. If it was just a fun flight then I would return and get it fixed at the convenient place I am based at. It would probably be a flap motor / relay fault which is fairly easy to fix. If it looked more sinister I would return immediately, without touching the flaps.
On the TB20, it "cannot" happen because there is a shaft that joins the two together.
On a short flight, say 200nm, and at low altitudes, say below FL100, I would probably fly on, but it does depend on various factors. If it was just a fun flight then I would return and get it fixed at the convenient place I am based at. It would probably be a flap motor / relay fault which is fairly easy to fix. If it looked more sinister I would return immediately, without touching the flaps.
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For me this would be a pure time/fuel consumption matter. There is no safety aspect to this depending on how the flap mechanism works.
I do not check flaps during preflight on my Cessna as I know that in case they don't work, I would do the flight anyway and if they fail during approach, I would just land without (which I practice regularly). The flaps are mechanically linked so asymmetric flap deployment is not an issue.
My old plane is a C172M with 40° flaps. I was always concerned about having to go around and then flaps failing to retract. Depending on the weather and weight, a C172 is impossible to keep in the air with 40°. I guess that was one of the reasons why Cessna limited the flaps to 30° in the C172N and newer. I never used the 40° after having tried to go around with flaps fully retracted.
I do not check flaps during preflight on my Cessna as I know that in case they don't work, I would do the flight anyway and if they fail during approach, I would just land without (which I practice regularly). The flaps are mechanically linked so asymmetric flap deployment is not an issue.
My old plane is a C172M with 40° flaps. I was always concerned about having to go around and then flaps failing to retract. Depending on the weather and weight, a C172 is impossible to keep in the air with 40°. I guess that was one of the reasons why Cessna limited the flaps to 30° in the C172N and newer. I never used the 40° after having tried to go around with flaps fully retracted.
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Depending on the weather and weight, a C172 is impossible to keep in the air with 40°
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On the TB20, it "cannot" happen because there is a shaft that joins the two together.
C172 certainly WILL fly with Flap 40, the big problem with Cessna Flap 40 is the push needed on a GA, but once you have the trim sorted it is quite flyable.
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I'd consider stuck flaps to be a fairly major thing, I'd be more worried about the potential cause being some sort of control restriction somewhere in the linkage e.g. a spanner or something lodged somewhere that could migrate elsewhere and cause further grief to the primary controls, so I'd probably RTB. If found before takeoff I'd definately not bother flying and get it checked pronto.
Continuing flight with the flaps stuck extended seems pointless to me - so much extra drag, fuel burn and time, plus the above concerns. But each to his own judgment I suppose.
Continuing flight with the flaps stuck extended seems pointless to me - so much extra drag, fuel burn and time, plus the above concerns. But each to his own judgment I suppose.
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Rented a 172 to fly, in stages, from St. Petersburg Florida to Austin Texas.
First of all, we couldn't get one of the doors to close. Struggled and struggled, finally got it to stay shut, and I said from now on we'll pretend its a Piper, still got one door serviceable!. Refueled at Talahassee, carried on to Baton Rouge Louisiana. Enormous runway. ATC requested us to expedite, as we are number one and a 737 is number two behind us. So I skedaddled down the approach, and over the numbers, moved the electric flap lever down.
Nothing happened. So I said, O ****, and continued the landing with no flaps, which was no big deal. Except you should never say the O.S. word with a nervous passenger; he was gripping the armrest whiteknuckled thinking that these are the usual last words of a pilot in extremis...
Nobody available in Baton Rouge to fix the flaps, so what the heck, carried on to Conroe Texas, abeam Houston. By this time, benign IMC, flying in the clear smooth space between a cloud sandwich. And on approach, realised one of the two VOR/DME was up the swannee....Houston vectored me down to 800 feet and we broke cloud. My passenger went for a coffee, I went to talk to Flight Service, who said that Austin weather was terrible and getting worse. So I went to my passenger and said "Very sorry, we'll either have to rent a car, or stay here until the weather improves, which won't be until tomorrow at best." Said he, "Can't you get a second opinion?"......! ! !
We rented a car.
First of all, we couldn't get one of the doors to close. Struggled and struggled, finally got it to stay shut, and I said from now on we'll pretend its a Piper, still got one door serviceable!. Refueled at Talahassee, carried on to Baton Rouge Louisiana. Enormous runway. ATC requested us to expedite, as we are number one and a 737 is number two behind us. So I skedaddled down the approach, and over the numbers, moved the electric flap lever down.
Nothing happened. So I said, O ****, and continued the landing with no flaps, which was no big deal. Except you should never say the O.S. word with a nervous passenger; he was gripping the armrest whiteknuckled thinking that these are the usual last words of a pilot in extremis...
Nobody available in Baton Rouge to fix the flaps, so what the heck, carried on to Conroe Texas, abeam Houston. By this time, benign IMC, flying in the clear smooth space between a cloud sandwich. And on approach, realised one of the two VOR/DME was up the swannee....Houston vectored me down to 800 feet and we broke cloud. My passenger went for a coffee, I went to talk to Flight Service, who said that Austin weather was terrible and getting worse. So I went to my passenger and said "Very sorry, we'll either have to rent a car, or stay here until the weather improves, which won't be until tomorrow at best." Said he, "Can't you get a second opinion?"......! ! !
We rented a car.
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I wouldn't have continued with stuck flaps personally, although I can see the temptation to take the aircraft home with a flyable problem so it can be fixed where it lives. I suppose you only need to consider whether flaps stuck in the take off position will hinder your planned arrival at your destination (short field perhaps), and whether the failure is an indication of another problem or if it will seriously gimp your cruise.
I've only experienced a failed vacuum pump in VMC, a radio which wouldn't transmit, and a magnetto problem. I chose not to continue with any of those problems although the first two were not really serious. I generally wouldn't continue a non-essential flight with a technical problem. I think you should be very respectful of gravity!
I've only experienced a failed vacuum pump in VMC, a radio which wouldn't transmit, and a magnetto problem. I chose not to continue with any of those problems although the first two were not really serious. I generally wouldn't continue a non-essential flight with a technical problem. I think you should be very respectful of gravity!
Last edited by The500man; 29th Feb 2012 at 22:27.
My 02 cents
It is always better being on the ground wishing you were in the air than being in the air wishing you were on the ground, so if in doubt land at the nearest suitable aerodrome
However the key to dealing with in air malfunctions is solid systems knowledge. A failure of the electric flaps to move in a Cessna is just that an inability to change flap position. It is almost always an electrical issue and does not per se mean that the airworthiness of the aircraft is compromised. The performance will certainly be compromised, however so a decision needs to made as to whether it would be wise to continue the trip.
I once had to deliver a Cessna 421 from Toronto to Vancouver. By the time the aircraft made it to Vancouver I had documented 58 defects. I started out with what was supposed to be a day/night VFR/IFR known icing capable airplane and by the end of the flight was only continuing in day VFR unpressurized flight conditions. There was a lot of things not working but the failures could be ameliorated by changing how/when I flew.
It is always better being on the ground wishing you were in the air than being in the air wishing you were on the ground, so if in doubt land at the nearest suitable aerodrome
However the key to dealing with in air malfunctions is solid systems knowledge. A failure of the electric flaps to move in a Cessna is just that an inability to change flap position. It is almost always an electrical issue and does not per se mean that the airworthiness of the aircraft is compromised. The performance will certainly be compromised, however so a decision needs to made as to whether it would be wise to continue the trip.
I once had to deliver a Cessna 421 from Toronto to Vancouver. By the time the aircraft made it to Vancouver I had documented 58 defects. I started out with what was supposed to be a day/night VFR/IFR known icing capable airplane and by the end of the flight was only continuing in day VFR unpressurized flight conditions. There was a lot of things not working but the failures could be ameliorated by changing how/when I flew.