Probably a really stupid question
Avoid imitations
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Harsh or not, I take it the OP did pass the UK Air Law exam?
Sorry, I totally disagree, and so might you, if when out flying one day someone turns the same way as you and you collide....
The Rules of the Air are freely available online these days, for all to read.
I've posted a direct link to the CAP393, so what more do you expect?
Sorry, I totally disagree, and so might you, if when out flying one day someone turns the same way as you and you collide....
The Rules of the Air are freely available online these days, for all to read.
I've posted a direct link to the CAP393, so what more do you expect?
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Another poor guy getting a roasting for asking a question.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.
It so happens that particular rule is the same in FAA land but a lot of rules are not the same.
Perhaps what we need is someone with a well developed sense of humour to make the rules an easier, even entertaining read the way Rod Machado has done for USA students and pilots.
Curling up in bed ar night with the ANO is not my idea of fun.
D.O.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.
It so happens that particular rule is the same in FAA land but a lot of rules are not the same.
Perhaps what we need is someone with a well developed sense of humour to make the rules an easier, even entertaining read the way Rod Machado has done for USA students and pilots.
Curling up in bed ar night with the ANO is not my idea of fun.
D.O.
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Peter... (oh dear, here we go again)...
When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air? Are you aware that if you did so, you would be assuming responsibility for any consequences?
When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air? Are you aware that if you did so, you would be assuming responsibility for any consequences?
Gosh I never knew that following some rule absolved you from responsibility for the consequences. That's really useful to know
Do you, by any chance, work in ATC?
But seriously, did you actually read what I wrote?
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So... What does the team think?
Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
D.O.
Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
D.O.
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ST,
Yes, I expect he did, and so I presume did you, but with a 100% pass rate? If so, then well done, but I suspect in line with most of us it was not quite that good in which case even YOU do not know ALL the rules and regs 100% and should back off a bit. I suspect it will not be this guy that hits you, but some other pilot who has been put off asking something else by replies like this.
(Plainly you also never picked up the bit of instructor lore that "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION")
rr83,
You may well do this in your general handling test but then never do it again, most checkouts will not include it and some instructors may do it during a 2 yearly flight with an instructor but once you have your PPL it is really up to you how much you practice things like Emergency Breaks, Stalling, Steep turns, PFLs and other manoeuvres that will keep your flying up to scratch.
Harsh or not, I take it the OP did pass the UK Air Law exam?
(Plainly you also never picked up the bit of instructor lore that "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION")
rr83,
Is this something that is regularly practised to make sure we are in the habit of turning right, and something that is practised each time we are getting familiar on a new type?
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Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
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Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
I have a horrible feeling that, in many cases, neither pilot sees anything and (usually) they do not collide. Neither would be the wiser after the event, so who is to say how often this happens.
Otherwise it is entirely reasonable that one pilot sees the problem first, and takes evasive action, to the right or left, depending on how "one o'clock" it was. Now he is changing shape, showing more wing, and a moving target (sorry, that's definitely the wrong word) in the other's windscreen, and is now much more likely to be seen, and the second pilot can evade in the other direction.
I don't have that many hours, but I have been close to other aircraft at least 3-4 times, that I know of, excluding cases when somebody like Farnborough Radar told me to look out. I don't think the other aircraft saw me in any of those cases. Doubtless there were cases where I was the blind one - I wouldn't know.
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Yes, I expect he did, and so I presume did you, but with a 100% pass rate?
But self-preservation would suggest bothering to learn the right-of-way rules.
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But self-preservation would suggest bothering to learn the right-of-way rules
Probably a really stupid question
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No such thing as a stupid question! absolutely right. two points arise:
1) When instructing potential glider pilots, I like to ask "two gliders head on, what should they do?" various answers are given.
My answer is BOTH turn right. However, in the case of hill soaring, both turn right except the one that can't - because he would hit the hill!
2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders (except the power pilot usually isn't looking out, in the real world!) gliders give way to balloons....love that one! And if one of the power pilots is towing up a glider, the other power plane should give way - but don't count on that either!
Junior National Glider competition at Weston on the Green. Properly NOTAM'd
and so forth. I am tugging up a Navy pilot in a ASW 19, observe a twin climbing out of OXFORD "LONDON" AIRPORT heading straight at us.
So I turned right.
The twin turned LEFT!!!!!!
My only option was to dive. The glider on tow hung on, quite sensibly, because if he had come off tow, there would have been two targets for the opposition. When we discussed it in the bar that evening, the Navy pilot said he paid for a 2,000 foot tow, and wanted his money's worth.....cool!
But the same rule applies in the air that applies at sea; if it is bigger than you, it has the right of way!
1) When instructing potential glider pilots, I like to ask "two gliders head on, what should they do?" various answers are given.
My answer is BOTH turn right. However, in the case of hill soaring, both turn right except the one that can't - because he would hit the hill!
2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders (except the power pilot usually isn't looking out, in the real world!) gliders give way to balloons....love that one! And if one of the power pilots is towing up a glider, the other power plane should give way - but don't count on that either!
Junior National Glider competition at Weston on the Green. Properly NOTAM'd
and so forth. I am tugging up a Navy pilot in a ASW 19, observe a twin climbing out of OXFORD "LONDON" AIRPORT heading straight at us.
So I turned right.
The twin turned LEFT!!!!!!
My only option was to dive. The glider on tow hung on, quite sensibly, because if he had come off tow, there would have been two targets for the opposition. When we discussed it in the bar that evening, the Navy pilot said he paid for a 2,000 foot tow, and wanted his money's worth.....cool!
But the same rule applies in the air that applies at sea; if it is bigger than you, it has the right of way!
Avoid imitations
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Another poor guy getting a roasting for asking a question.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.
Foxmoth, the right of way rules and lights required a 100% pass when I did my exams. The rest of Air Law perhaps isn't quite so important and no-one can be expected to know all of it; I certainly wouldn't claim to do so. However, all pilots should know where to find the answer to right of way rules - this is totally fundamental stuff! Or do some of us consider it optional? Would anyone here consider driving a car in another country without knowing at least the basic rules on right of way?
I agree that there is no such thing as a stupid question (if you are a student). However, even the OP thought it might be - see the title! I did politely resist the initial temptation to simply reply "YES" (but the website doesn't allow one word answers, in any case).
The answer is in CAP393, that I linked to; all anyone has to do is to download it and read it. The right of way rules have always been the same for at least the forty years that I've been flying.
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Peter wrote:
There's no ambiguity in my aircraft. If the aircraft are well separated, then no risk of collision exists, and the rules are redundant. You have to make this assessment from the point of view of the pessimistic pilot of the other aircraft of course; practically, you must assume that he will decide there is a risk of collision at a very early stage.
Halfbaked Boy wrote:
Quite right. And this should be an extremely unusual occasion; not in any way routine. If you reach this situation, then you have probably missed something important.
Peter wrote:
Yes there are. Rule 9 says: 'when two aircraft are converging in the air at approximately the same altitude, the aircraft which has the other on its right shall give way'.
It does not say: 'which has the other on the right of its track'...
Rule 10 says: 'When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or approximately so, in the air and there is a danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right'.
Nowhere is track mentioned. Both are in the same air mass. Why would you even think it had anything to do with track?
Well, it doesn't, and I don't know why you present this entirely irrelevant allegation (perhaps it's the best you could come up with 
), but I'll try to explain (again, since you didn't seem to get it last time): if the flight manual tells you what to do, and you don't do it, then you are entirely and singularly responsible for the consequences. I believe, from your last response on this point, that you didn't understand me...
If you are approaching another aircraft head on, or approximately so, and you turn left, and the other pilot turns right, and there is a collision, it will be your fault. The rule told you to turn right, and you didn't.
The rules only work if you assume that the other pilot knows them and is applying them.
This thread started with someone admitting he didn't know them, and later saying he couldn't be bothered to take a moment to find them. He shouldn't have been aviating until he knew them. How many others are out there?
I agree with Mary, there is no such thing as a stupid question. There are, however, stupid ways of finding answers.
Would anyone care to remind us of the number of mid-air collisions and fatalities resulting from them in the UK in very recent years..?
There is ambiguity in practice, if the two aircraft are well separated but apparently head-on, if their tracks are such that a turn to the left is more appropriate.
Halfbaked Boy wrote:
When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air?
To preserve life, of course.
To preserve life, of course.
Peter wrote:
Also, is the "one o'clock" relative to your heading, or relative to your track.
There are no hard rules on this, if you see other traffic at a long distance.
There are no hard rules on this, if you see other traffic at a long distance.
It does not say: 'which has the other on the right of its track'...
Rule 10 says: 'When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or approximately so, in the air and there is a danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right'.
Nowhere is track mentioned. Both are in the same air mass. Why would you even think it had anything to do with track?
If you are FLH and the flight manual says Pull the BRS when other traffic is in view, then you must pull the BRS
), but I'll try to explain (again, since you didn't seem to get it last time): if the flight manual tells you what to do, and you don't do it, then you are entirely and singularly responsible for the consequences. I believe, from your last response on this point, that you didn't understand me...If you are approaching another aircraft head on, or approximately so, and you turn left, and the other pilot turns right, and there is a collision, it will be your fault. The rule told you to turn right, and you didn't.
The rules only work if you assume that the other pilot knows them and is applying them.
This thread started with someone admitting he didn't know them, and later saying he couldn't be bothered to take a moment to find them. He shouldn't have been aviating until he knew them. How many others are out there?
I agree with Mary, there is no such thing as a stupid question. There are, however, stupid ways of finding answers.
Would anyone care to remind us of the number of mid-air collisions and fatalities resulting from them in the UK in very recent years..?
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While the OP is probably not technically a visitor he makes it clear he has recently moved here and is flying on his FAA certificate.
My instructor always told me RTFQ.
When a question raises more questions maybe it is not so stupid.
Chill.
D.O.
My instructor always told me RTFQ.
When a question raises more questions maybe it is not so stupid.
Chill.
D.O.
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D.O.
It will take more than this lot to take the chill off me or my glass of Chablis...
But I don't get your point... Presumably, you are suggesting that the OP had to learn a new set of rules for avoiding aerial collisions when he moved from the US?
Hang on... If you keep editing your post, it makes a meaningful reply a bit of a challenge...
It will take more than this lot to take the chill off me or my glass of Chablis...
But I don't get your point... Presumably, you are suggesting that the OP had to learn a new set of rules for avoiding aerial collisions when he moved from the US?
Hang on... If you keep editing your post, it makes a meaningful reply a bit of a challenge...
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My original post
[quoteIf you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be flying until you do know][/quote]
Very interesting indeed, pondering the above reply and reading the rest of the posts, I have come to a few conclusions as follows:
1. Perhaps I should have read the reg’s.
2. I suspect that a fairly large percentage of VFR sport pilots may not know, or have forgotten the codified response to the hypothetical situation I raised.
3. Taking into account No. 2 above, and my gut feeling that most non professional pilots (hobbyists) will default to “what they know” in a high stress situation, my money (and perhaps life) is on them reacting exactly the same way they would if they met an oncoming car head on on a lovely country lane here in the UK, which is steer into the ditch or up the verge and into the hedge ON THE LEFT.
And finally I am overjoyed that I have found such an open and understanding forum for my current and undoubtedly future “stupid questions”. Being the glutton for punishment that I am, my 3 ex wives and their lawyers from both sides of the Atlantic have afforded me a comprehensive sensitivity as to what a real haranguing truly is . Any roasting, condemnations or bollockings I get here will be a walk in the park.
Right, now with that being said, its time to check the weather to see if I’ll be pulling the Maule out of the tractor shed (to the right of the John Deere of course) and go bollox up a few more xwind landings !!!
Happy ,safe flying folks.
Very interesting indeed, pondering the above reply and reading the rest of the posts, I have come to a few conclusions as follows:
1. Perhaps I should have read the reg’s.
2. I suspect that a fairly large percentage of VFR sport pilots may not know, or have forgotten the codified response to the hypothetical situation I raised.
3. Taking into account No. 2 above, and my gut feeling that most non professional pilots (hobbyists) will default to “what they know” in a high stress situation, my money (and perhaps life) is on them reacting exactly the same way they would if they met an oncoming car head on on a lovely country lane here in the UK, which is steer into the ditch or up the verge and into the hedge ON THE LEFT.
And finally I am overjoyed that I have found such an open and understanding forum for my current and undoubtedly future “stupid questions”. Being the glutton for punishment that I am, my 3 ex wives and their lawyers from both sides of the Atlantic have afforded me a comprehensive sensitivity as to what a real haranguing truly is . Any roasting, condemnations or bollockings I get here will be a walk in the park.
Right, now with that being said, its time to check the weather to see if I’ll be pulling the Maule out of the tractor shed (to the right of the John Deere of course) and go bollox up a few more xwind landings !!!
Happy ,safe flying folks.
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D.O.,
Apologies, I skimmed over this:
It's very simple. If they are each seeing traffic in the one o'clock position, the relative bearings should be changing, and there is no risk of collision. They will pass starboard to starboard. This is in the ANO.
This is not necessarily true if either aircraft is manoeuvring towards the other; the rules do not provide for manoeuvring cases.
Again, the maritime world makes much more of the very simple interaction between nav lights and traffic lights. The situation above (green to green) is safe. If you see a red nav light on a constant relative bearing, you must give way ('stop'). If you see a green nav light ditto, you must 'stand on' (maintain course and speed). Why the aviation world has never cottoned on to this is beyond me...
There's an excellent little book called 'The Seaman's Guide to the Rules of the Road', which examines the relevant rules and their interpretations. Sadly, there is no aviator's equivalent.
Apologies, I skimmed over this:
Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?
Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.
This is not necessarily true if either aircraft is manoeuvring towards the other; the rules do not provide for manoeuvring cases.
Again, the maritime world makes much more of the very simple interaction between nav lights and traffic lights. The situation above (green to green) is safe. If you see a red nav light on a constant relative bearing, you must give way ('stop'). If you see a green nav light ditto, you must 'stand on' (maintain course and speed). Why the aviation world has never cottoned on to this is beyond me...
There's an excellent little book called 'The Seaman's Guide to the Rules of the Road', which examines the relevant rules and their interpretations. Sadly, there is no aviator's equivalent.
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piperboy,
1. You should have
2. They shouldn't fly
3. I hope I don't meet them as they come off the ferry at Calais or pull out of the hotel car park in Toulouse
I'm glad you're not taking it too badly. Happy landings in the Maule (a lovely aircraft).
1. You should have
2. They shouldn't fly
3. I hope I don't meet them as they come off the ferry at Calais or pull out of the hotel car park in Toulouse
I'm glad you're not taking it too badly. Happy landings in the Maule (a lovely aircraft).