Concerned
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Sorted. Thanks tmmorris and anoystude. The CFI will be contacting the AIDU.
The incident caused some consternation in the circuit according to the CFI.
D.O.
The incident caused some consternation in the circuit according to the CFI.
D.O.
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No snags. I should probably point out that just getting on the charts won't magically make you an avoid: the only mandatory avoids are ATZs and the like, but it might raise the profile of the place a bit.
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GrobQueen had started another thread about this on Military Flying, but seems to have pulled it.
Having given GQ the following food for thought, the thread has been deleted.
Let's hope we can get this back on track for making Balado & Perth safer and away from being wrongly described as an "RAF bashing" thread.
by Grob Queen
Quote:
Hi all,
I don't usually come here, I am a PPL student so have no relevance to your forum. However, there is a thread on there called "Concerned" where the OP has moaned about..well, firstly a Typhoon which now seems to have metamorphosed into a Herc!! (shows how much knowledge there is there on RAF aircraft )
Anyway, there is some issue over this military aircraft infringing Civvy airfield airspace over Balado airfield. I would be interested to know if any of you guys have any views on this discussion. It seems very one sided, the RAF are the "bad boys" and my counter arguments are just poo-pooed (maybe correctly, I don't know). To give you some background, I am learning to fly at an RAF flying Club so know a small amount of RAF flying procedures (but only a very little..i'm not pretending I know even a tiny part of what you guys know ) ; all my flying has been done from military airfields so far. I am also a civvy who works on said Station and have been working with the RAF all my career and very pro the service!
I suppose I am just interested to see the take that you chaps and chapesses would have on this issue.
TVM
GQ
Quote:
Hi all,
I don't usually come here, I am a PPL student so have no relevance to your forum. However, there is a thread on there called "Concerned" where the OP has moaned about..well, firstly a Typhoon which now seems to have metamorphosed into a Herc!! (shows how much knowledge there is there on RAF aircraft )
Anyway, there is some issue over this military aircraft infringing Civvy airfield airspace over Balado airfield. I would be interested to know if any of you guys have any views on this discussion. It seems very one sided, the RAF are the "bad boys" and my counter arguments are just poo-pooed (maybe correctly, I don't know). To give you some background, I am learning to fly at an RAF flying Club so know a small amount of RAF flying procedures (but only a very little..i'm not pretending I know even a tiny part of what you guys know ) ; all my flying has been done from military airfields so far. I am also a civvy who works on said Station and have been working with the RAF all my career and very pro the service!
I suppose I am just interested to see the take that you chaps and chapesses would have on this issue.
TVM
GQ
Having given GQ the following food for thought, the thread has been deleted.
The post in the other forum clearly relates to three incidents. Not date specific, but sometime in the past few months.
1) A Typhoon overhead the Balado microlighting site, where the Typhoon may or may not have been in r/t contact with Microlighters. The reporter for this "incident" was at home and is not aware of any co-ordination that may or may not have been in place. He tells us that the Balado CFI is concerned but there is still the possibility of the Typhoon having spoken to some traffic in the circuit.
2) A C17 at the edge of the zone, no further info.
3) A C130 passing inside the zone without talking to Perth.
There is an allegation, by a long time PPRUNER and qualified pilot, that the C130 was at 300 feet well inside the ATZ not talking to Perth. How this height/range estimate was arrived at is still unexplained.
Although the C130 is alleged to have been 800 metres away at 300 feet, there is no information on which Air Force it belongs to.
Grob Queen is the only person seeing an anti-RAF stance here, the other contributors are simply trying to establish the facts and prevent danger. Nobody is whinging about RAF flying, D.O. is just reporting an airprox as the C130 is alleged to have infringed the Perth ATZ. A civilian aircraft doing this would be just as worthwhile reporting, but to the UK Airprox Board, not to PPRuNe!
1) A Typhoon overhead the Balado microlighting site, where the Typhoon may or may not have been in r/t contact with Microlighters. The reporter for this "incident" was at home and is not aware of any co-ordination that may or may not have been in place. He tells us that the Balado CFI is concerned but there is still the possibility of the Typhoon having spoken to some traffic in the circuit.
2) A C17 at the edge of the zone, no further info.
3) A C130 passing inside the zone without talking to Perth.
There is an allegation, by a long time PPRUNER and qualified pilot, that the C130 was at 300 feet well inside the ATZ not talking to Perth. How this height/range estimate was arrived at is still unexplained.
Although the C130 is alleged to have been 800 metres away at 300 feet, there is no information on which Air Force it belongs to.
Grob Queen is the only person seeing an anti-RAF stance here, the other contributors are simply trying to establish the facts and prevent danger. Nobody is whinging about RAF flying, D.O. is just reporting an airprox as the C130 is alleged to have infringed the Perth ATZ. A civilian aircraft doing this would be just as worthwhile reporting, but to the UK Airprox Board, not to PPRuNe!
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Grob Queen is the only person seeing an anti-RAF stance here
This is what I see as wrong with PPrune, a great idea and yes, I've had some helpful advice from those of much more experience and am grateful to them. This issue has just confirmed to me how some harmless comments on pprune can turn into personal attacks and leading to deflammatory comments by complete strangers on other members of the community whos views they don't agree with...I don't mind that...but posting something which is deflammatory is wrong and I hope the mods will take action on this.
I for one will not be posting here again. I was going to go to Sherburn, but am certainly not now. Thank goodness I hear some of you say. But for the sake of the fact that I have had some very helpful comments, this is a great shame. For those of you who have hounded me out; please be kinder to other posters...for those who have helped me thus far I say thank you so very much and happy flying to all of you
As the ATC would say, "Good Day"
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by Grob Queen
Quote:
Hi all,
I don't usually come here, I am a PPL student so have no relevance to your forum. However, there is a thread on there called "Concerned" where the OP has moaned about..well, firstly a Typhoon which now seems to have metamorphosed into a Herc!! (shows how much knowledge there is there on RAF aircraft )
Quote:
Hi all,
I don't usually come here, I am a PPL student so have no relevance to your forum. However, there is a thread on there called "Concerned" where the OP has moaned about..well, firstly a Typhoon which now seems to have metamorphosed into a Herc!! (shows how much knowledge there is there on RAF aircraft )
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GQ, I did not suggest that you are Anti RAF, I said that your comment
seems to suggest an Anti RAF bias where none exists.
The original comment, and as far as I can see, the purpose of the thread, was to raise awareness of the Microlight activity at Balado and the presence of the Perth ATZ.
Nobody except you seems to think that the RAF are being painted as the bad guys here.
Whether or not anything wrong has actually been done has yet to be established, never mind blaming the Royal Air Force for it.
It seems very one sided, the RAF are the "bad boys" and my counter arguments are just poo-pooed
The original comment, and as far as I can see, the purpose of the thread, was to raise awareness of the Microlight activity at Balado and the presence of the Perth ATZ.
Nobody except you seems to think that the RAF are being painted as the bad guys here.
Whether or not anything wrong has actually been done has yet to be established, never mind blaming the Royal Air Force for it.
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Bluntly GQ you need to understand what this is about.
Any aircraft flying through the active circuit of an airfiled is acting in a negilent and dangerous way.
The RAF doing it adds a huge level more danger as the wake turbulence alone from many of their aircraft is enough to seriously destablise or if close enough destroy a light aircraft.
Given that everyone in or vaguely asociated with the RAF always states they are the most professional of aviators this sort of behaviour should seriously impact them. Instead we have twits saving 'they need to practice somewhere'.
Have a look at the Scottish half million and you may spot a discrete 'practice area'. Blasting through the circuit of an active airstrip is not practice - it is rank negilence.
Any aircraft flying through the active circuit of an airfiled is acting in a negilent and dangerous way.
The RAF doing it adds a huge level more danger as the wake turbulence alone from many of their aircraft is enough to seriously destablise or if close enough destroy a light aircraft.
Given that everyone in or vaguely asociated with the RAF always states they are the most professional of aviators this sort of behaviour should seriously impact them. Instead we have twits saving 'they need to practice somewhere'.
Have a look at the Scottish half million and you may spot a discrete 'practice area'. Blasting through the circuit of an active airstrip is not practice - it is rank negilence.
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Bluntly GQ you need to understand what this is about.
Any aircraft flying through the active circuit of an airfiled is acting in a negilent and dangerous way.
The RAF doing it adds a huge level more danger as the wake turbulence alone from many of their aircraft is enough to seriously destablise or if close enough destroy a light aircraft.
Given that everyone in or vaguely asociated with the RAF always states they are the most professional of aviators this sort of behaviour should seriously impact them. Instead we have twits saving 'they need to practice somewhere'.
Have a look at the Scottish half million and you may spot a discrete 'practice area'. Blasting through the circuit of an active airstrip is not practice - it is rank negilence.
Any aircraft flying through the active circuit of an airfiled is acting in a negilent and dangerous way.
The RAF doing it adds a huge level more danger as the wake turbulence alone from many of their aircraft is enough to seriously destablise or if close enough destroy a light aircraft.
Given that everyone in or vaguely asociated with the RAF always states they are the most professional of aviators this sort of behaviour should seriously impact them. Instead we have twits saving 'they need to practice somewhere'.
Have a look at the Scottish half million and you may spot a discrete 'practice area'. Blasting through the circuit of an active airstrip is not practice - it is rank negilence.
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GQ,
Please take a chill pill and go back and read the posts carefully and I think you will find you have totally misunderstood what was being said by me and others on this Forum.
A simple précis for you.
I witnessed from my house a military Typhoon flying through an active circuit at Balado and posted it here.
My fine colleagues on here pointed out to me that although Balado is on civil charts it is not on the military versions. They have given me the info needed to rectify this.
In passing I mentioned that there had been a couple of mil transport incursions at Perth 15 miles north some time ago. This is probably not relevant to the original post so let's forget that just now.
I am most definately not anti military. I also work in aviation and have been an active pilot for 24 years so please do not blame me for taking offence to being referred to as amember of the public who cannot judge the height or distance of an aircraft.
Once you have re read the posts can we kiss and make up?
Ps
What has Sherburn got to do with this?
D.O.
Please take a chill pill and go back and read the posts carefully and I think you will find you have totally misunderstood what was being said by me and others on this Forum.
A simple précis for you.
I witnessed from my house a military Typhoon flying through an active circuit at Balado and posted it here.
My fine colleagues on here pointed out to me that although Balado is on civil charts it is not on the military versions. They have given me the info needed to rectify this.
In passing I mentioned that there had been a couple of mil transport incursions at Perth 15 miles north some time ago. This is probably not relevant to the original post so let's forget that just now.
I am most definately not anti military. I also work in aviation and have been an active pilot for 24 years so please do not blame me for taking offence to being referred to as amember of the public who cannot judge the height or distance of an aircraft.
Once you have re read the posts can we kiss and make up?
Ps
What has Sherburn got to do with this?
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 5th Feb 2012 at 19:35.
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That would be the PPrune Spring Flyers Bash at Shelburn at the end of March. I guess Grob Queen is not going anymore. Was it something I said Dear?????
Is this some kind of record for a thread to go totally pear shaped??
Is this some kind of record for a thread to go totally pear shaped??
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Max, if you look at GrobQueen's profile and previous posts, all will become clear.
GQ seems to have a well balanced personality, a chip on each shoulder from defending the Royal Air Force, whether it needs defending or not.
Students with attitude....... dear oh dear.
AP
GQ seems to have a well balanced personality, a chip on each shoulder from defending the Royal Air Force, whether it needs defending or not.
Students with attitude....... dear oh dear.
AP
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Oh.... so now it's JUST learns at an RAF flying club eh? 
It was good enough for me, with three squadrons of fast jets and a bunch of rotary Brown Jobs to help me stay focussed.
"Park beside the GR4, Cleared to roll after the Tucano, caution due to wake turbulence from the VC10, enter the ORP behind the departing Harriers, taxy BEHIND the live armed Tornado." Armed guards at the gate and the sound of gunfire from the range as you do the walk round.
All the sort of stuff you don't normally get at a small training airfield, great fun too.
I don't know if it is better, but it certainly is different.
It was good enough for me, with three squadrons of fast jets and a bunch of rotary Brown Jobs to help me stay focussed.
"Park beside the GR4, Cleared to roll after the Tucano, caution due to wake turbulence from the VC10, enter the ORP behind the departing Harriers, taxy BEHIND the live armed Tornado." Armed guards at the gate and the sound of gunfire from the range as you do the walk round.
All the sort of stuff you don't normally get at a small training airfield, great fun too.
I don't know if it is better, but it certainly is different.
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Humble pie time
Everyone,
I have apologised to D.O on PM and this has been accepted. I will admit happily that I do indeed have strong views about things and say what I think without thinking of the consequences and that this is a failing - and I guess this is what may be seen as "attitude". I realise now that it is not a good idea to post strong view online as they can be misconstrued....I will even admit that in this I have been a pratt I have never hidden that I am inexperienced in aviation matters. Hence what some of you may see as my previous daft questions. Like everyone on here I love my flying and although only a newbee would like to join in with threads, but admittedly I know there are not many which I can make a contribution to. I thought this was one which I could, but I now see, I should not have done.
To all, I would ask, i've apologised, i've admitted i'm wrong in this issue, PLEASE can we let this one drop?!
Many thanks
GQ
I have apologised to D.O on PM and this has been accepted. I will admit happily that I do indeed have strong views about things and say what I think without thinking of the consequences and that this is a failing - and I guess this is what may be seen as "attitude". I realise now that it is not a good idea to post strong view online as they can be misconstrued....I will even admit that in this I have been a pratt
I have never hidden that I am inexperienced in aviation matters. Hence what some of you may see as my previous daft questions. Like everyone on here I love my flying and although only a newbee would like to join in with threads, but admittedly I know there are not many which I can make a contribution to. I thought this was one which I could, but I now see, I should not have done.To all, I would ask, i've apologised, i've admitted i'm wrong in this issue, PLEASE can we let this one drop?!
Many thanks
GQ
Last edited by Grob Queen; 6th Feb 2012 at 11:15.
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GQ, you can bow out if you wish, but as you were never central to the original post, that will not matter.
We certainly should not drop the matter of infringements, real or otherwise.
Someone flew a C130, possibly not the RAF, close enough to Perth for it to be talked about. We should let the Airprox board establish if it was inside the ATZ or not.
As for the Typhoon, we'll possibly never know if the pilot was talking to anyone at Balado, or indeed where the Typhoon was from. The trials unit at Warton have been known to go that far north, so once again, it might not have been an RAF aircraft.
I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to be taken out the back and shot for it, but Perth and Balado have a high amount of trainees in the circuit. We need to accept that a student will not have the same standard of lookout as a more experienced pilot.
Particularly in the circuit, where their is an expectation of some degree of being protected by knowing all the traffic around you, lookout can slip down the list of priorities for students.
Imagine a student on right base for 27 at Perth meeting a C130 coming up the A94 below 500 feet!
We certainly should not drop the matter of infringements, real or otherwise.
Someone flew a C130, possibly not the RAF, close enough to Perth for it to be talked about. We should let the Airprox board establish if it was inside the ATZ or not.
As for the Typhoon, we'll possibly never know if the pilot was talking to anyone at Balado, or indeed where the Typhoon was from. The trials unit at Warton have been known to go that far north, so once again, it might not have been an RAF aircraft.
I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to be taken out the back and shot for it, but Perth and Balado have a high amount of trainees in the circuit. We need to accept that a student will not have the same standard of lookout as a more experienced pilot.
Particularly in the circuit, where their is an expectation of some degree of being protected by knowing all the traffic around you, lookout can slip down the list of priorities for students.
Imagine a student on right base for 27 at Perth meeting a C130 coming up the A94 below 500 feet!
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Someone flew a C130, possibly not the RAF, close enough to Perth for it to be talked about.
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Having all kisssed and made up, does that mean that Grob Queen's trip to Sherburn is back on???
Anyway, coming back on track, or off of it, as the Typhoon/C130 are alleged to have been, I have never witnessed a FJ as far south as Balado.
Remember we have Portmoak, Fife, the Edinburgh ATZ Kelty VRP intercept lane, and DO if this was in fact an FJ, overflying the circuit at Balado, then this indeed would be a big deal. In fact I would definitely make a report
This is too far South for any safe transit. Fine the other side of the Ochils in the valley, but not between these hills and the Forth. I assume we have a direction, date and time.
And guys this would not be RAF bashing, this would be a very valid safety report.
Anyway, coming back on track, or off of it, as the Typhoon/C130 are alleged to have been, I have never witnessed a FJ as far south as Balado.
Remember we have Portmoak, Fife, the Edinburgh ATZ Kelty VRP intercept lane, and DO if this was in fact an FJ, overflying the circuit at Balado, then this indeed would be a big deal. In fact I would definitely make a report
This is too far South for any safe transit. Fine the other side of the Ochils in the valley, but not between these hills and the Forth. I assume we have a direction, date and time.
And guys this would not be RAF bashing, this would be a very valid safety report.
Last edited by maxred; 6th Feb 2012 at 15:52.
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Maxred,
Yes, fast jets are not uncommon in the Kinross area. I suppose the M90, The golfball and Loch Leven are all good visual references.
140KIAS might be right because the C130 was big and grey
D.O.
Yes, fast jets are not uncommon in the Kinross area. I suppose the M90, The golfball and Loch Leven are all good visual references.
140KIAS might be right because the C130 was big and grey
D.O.
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DO, Ive tentatively got Sherburn in the diary but havent officially registered as yet. Any chance of you getting some R&R and joining me. Then we can all watch you guys kiss and make up
