BabyBear

This thread has my brain pickled, in a good way of course. Rather than encourage me to turn back in the case of an EFATO it has me terrified to turn back in a glider now.

What it has also done is cause me to question how many pilots always, without fail, backtrack to the threshhold to ensure max height is reached at the closest possible point to the field and that the initial turn can be made be made likewise?

BB

mary meagher

A very worthwhile discussion! Let me make one more point, applies equally to gliders and power planes: when it is recommended to LAND AHEAD, the British Gliding Association goes on to say "if you can do so safely!"

You DON'T HAVE TO LAND STRAIGHT AHEAD EXACTLY, a slight turn to right or left may present a better option. Early days in your flying, let the instructor do the climb out and you have a look for these possible better options that could sensibly be reached. Even better, spend time looking at Google Earth, and spot useful fields that may come in handy. Remember it is less painful to hit the far hedge than the near one, should the field be short.

But engines may be more likely to fail by degrees rather than all at once with a bang. What would you do in that case?

If I was away from the airfield, and my engine began to sound unhappy, the FIRST THING I would do is select a nearby field, land on it, and then call for help if needed....This order of priorities I have been told is quite wrong.

Pace

There is a big difference between armchair discussions and reality. For me the biggest no no is fixating on achieving a landing spot in event of an engine failure.
How many pilots have lost control or hit trees because they have fixated on a landing spot ahead and ignored perfectly good fields left and right because they think they have to land into wind!
Or for that matter been too high and fixating on the landing spot in the field ended up 20kts too fast sailing down the selected field into the trees at the end!
We also talk often about a stabilised approach! How does a turnback classify as a stabilised approach.
The main thing is to keep the ship flying at all cost.
Many here may not yet have been in a bad situation. Those who have will tell you how a real situation is very different from a forum discussion while you sip another glass of wine in front of the computer.
Your best chance of success is as stable an approach as possible which means pegged airspeed and as little to disturb the aircraft profile as possible selecting flap land only when assured of that landing!how does a panic high bank turn achieve that?
All I would add is that on that stabilised approach going for your landing spot monitor other alternatives left and right if your profile goes pear shaped throw it away and continue your stabilised approach to a new landing spot left or right but not behind All that will achieve is a messy approach and an even more panicky and disorientated pilot now landing with the worst state of a tailwind thrown into the pot.
Tailwind = Higher speed over the ground into whatever you are going to hit.
High bank =confusion and greater chance of a stall spin.

Pace

GeeWhizz

Interesting reading guys.

Maybe a bit late in discussion now but I see turnbacks relatively frequently, perhaps more than some and know the procedure well enough.

The ones that I do see are usually carried out by aircraft that have height (500- 800ft AGL min) and the speed to complete the turning component of the manoeuvre. These aircraft are HPAs and would probably be able to complete a turnback at a lower height but those aren't practiced so I've never seen one.

Would I do it in the clubs 172? Most unlikely, there may be that one time when... Another of aviations great 'ifs'. All credit to those who have their own aeroplanes and have practiced turnbacks and can explain all the theory behind doing them.

Cheers

GW

foxmoth

Why? Yes, pick a field, but if it is still running, get/keep what height you can and fly field to field to the nearest airfield, depending of course on how bad it sounds and if it gets worse as you are going.

Genghis the Engineer

If I'm away from an airfield and my engine shows signs of misbehaving, the first thing I'll do is climb, the second is fly to the overhead of the nearest alternate. I'll descend only when I can stay in gliding distance of a runway. If the engine stops en-route, then the extra height maximises my options.

G

n5296s

Hear hear! (Or maybe that's here here - I've never been sure). Been there, done exactly that, twice. Once was when (as it turned out) my turbo had been busy reducing its impeller to shards of alumin[i]um, the other a never-explained engine hiccup. In both cases I circled down over the field.

In a plane there's very little the engine can do that is immediately life threatening - falling off, catching fire, or shedding the prop, maybe. Just running a little rough or oddly isn't necessarily a hint that one of those is about to happen, especially if the issue doesn't recur (as it didn't in my two cases). Anything which suggests that any of those catastrophic events might occur is a reason to treat it as though it has stopped and get on the ground asap.

The heli is a different story. Among all those bits whirling around are several which can make the whirling stop. A "chip light" indicating metallic debris in one of the gearboxes is a reason to get on the ground RIGHT NOW.

chrisN

For information (it’s nice to get these things right):

American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms:
hear, hear


An expression used to express approval, as in Whenever the senator spoke, he was greeted with cries of "Hear! hear!" This expression was originally Hear him! hear him! and used to call attention to a speaker's words. It gradually came to be used simply as a cheer. [Late 1600s]


[It is the same in British usage.]

Chris N

Croqueteer

in an engine failure situation in the climb, the aircraft can be turned though 180degrees with a ht loss of 200ft. Discuss

Genghis the Engineer

You are ever so slightly late to the party Croqueteer - try reading the rest of this thread.

G

FullWings

Something else to factor in is that when it happens for real, it will be unexpected. Doesn't matter how much you practice (unless it's the only flying you do) it'll come as a shock. What unfolds afterwards will, of course, be influenced by your level of preparation. Just don't underestimate the brain-freezing potential of the "I don't believe it!" or "WTF?!?" moment.

I get 4 days a year of emergency training/checking in the sim. I run through a few pertinent scenarios before I take off in the real aeroplane and am known to read the manuals from time to time. Last year, the cockpit filled with smoke/fumes on rotation and my first thought was , followed shortly by . Things improved after I put the autopilot in, handed over control, got the oxygen mask on and declared an emergency... Then there was time to think, run the appropriate drills, discuss what was happening, etc. To start with, though, there was what felt like ages but was probably only a few seconds of "this isn't happening!". My partner-in-crime had a similar experience.

I only relate this as these things are hardly ever "textbook". What worked out OK in nice weather with advance planning and a engine that would get you out of trouble if it all went to worms, may not be quite the same if you are already loaded up with weather, ATC and passenger distractions, the engine has thrown a pot but is still running and oil is creeping up the windscreen...

mary meagher

whatever happens, it will come as a shock! That's exactly right, Fullwings, and in this discussion, as Ghengis reminds us, is about the "impossible turn"!

In power, practicing that pukertime option always seemed to me not quite exciting enough; the instructor pulls back the power, and says "Now what you gonna do?" And you know very well to lower the nose and say "I am going to land ahead!" whereupon the Instructor fires up the engine, and you carry on with the rest of the lesson.

Which is why I think all you chaps with the mindset of (1) radio emergency!
(2) try to restart engine (3) get back to the airfield if possible, could use some launch failure training at a glider winch site! Because when that cable is gone, your "engine" is really really gone, and you've got to actually deal with what to do next. Is the "impossible turn" an option or not?

After 8 or 10 cable breaks, the trained response is set in the brain, so when it happens for real, you've seen it before and know what to do.

Genghis the Engineer

Completely the wrong order in any emergency of-course.

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

In that order. So (3), then (2), then (1)

Although my (3) would be try and get the aeroplane to something large, flat and landable, if that happens to be an airfield that's a bonus.

G

The500man

Shouldn't option 1 always be try to restart the engine unless it is obviously broken? (fire, oil leak, low pressure, high temp etc.) It seems no one wants to think about engine/ prop handling in this thread what with the allure of making an impossible turn.

Ultra long hauler

Good point(s)!

The only in-fight emergency I "enjoyed" so far was a sudden nasty noise from the engine at about 1000 feet; still 20 minutes from our destination I opted for the closest airfield (which I was unfamiliar with).
I did not have the presence of mind to climb, as mentioned by Genghis.

I was flying the plane though (aviate), I made my way (navigate) to the nearest airport while my friend (non-pilot) tried to get hold of the "crop dusting boss" on the general frequency to obtain permission to land; (communicate) to no avail.

Upon arrival I did one spin for reconnaissance purposes and I noticed there was a cropduster stuck in the trench next to the runway.
They saw me and the pick-up truck attending the cropduster moved clear which I took us permission…….

Turned out to be a large hole in the Rotax exhaust line! Bummer!!
The friendly team tried to fix it with a weld but after a quick test-flight the same noise appeared; which meant we had to abandon the plane for the night!



Not a very nice thing to do; and a #$%*-ing long drive the next day!!

###Ultra long Hauler###

foxmoth

No - first fly the aircraft, otherwise you could stall or hit something nasty while trying the restart, once you have it pointing the right way both vertically and horizontally you can then try a restart if there is something obvious and you have time.

Genghis the Engineer

You beat me to it Foxmoth.

Attempt to re-start the engine IF you have time and height to do that and then still execute a safe forced landing if you failed. If that time and height isn't there, leave the engine alone, it has ceased to be your friend.

Sounds like you did exactly the right thing to me - although I'm guessing that you actually did an orbit, not a spin!

G

The500man

Flying the aircraft first isn't option 1 as you are already doing it and it isn't optional.

Genghis the Engineer

I'm willing to bet that most pilots in training, at some point, concentrated on other stuff to the exclusion of flying the aircraft.

I can think of the odd occasion in my training where I was pulled up for this. And rightly so. In my short period as an instructor, I've also seen this - sooner or later - in most PPLs.

G

foxmoth

WRONG, try instructing, you may be surprised in an EFATO how many STOP flying the aircraft