Mid Air at Leicester Aerodrome
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Even on latest software release of TCAS 2, azimuth data cannot be trusted. Indeed I have seen contacts move from one side of a TCAS screen to the other and back again at an impossible speed
The Avidyne 600 does not do that.
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As of this posting, ASN is still wrong. Some ****** seems to be guessing with no actual knowledge. I have tried to correct the entry, but it doesn't seem to accept my changes.
The incident aircraft was NOT G-BREY. It, and it's primary pilot, are both safe and sound.
The incident aircraft was NOT G-BREY. It, and it's primary pilot, are both safe and sound.
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Pitts2112 - SD - I thought about correcting it yesterday, but I felt that it would be better to protect the details of the real victim until the family have released the info. I'm sure that EY's owners will have considered correcting it too. Frankly, all it shows on ASN is that there are some sick people out there who think they are clever when it's obvious they have no knowledge of the incident.
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To be honest Beethoven I don't think most pilots have a clue either about what needs to go on. I think most presume you get out go to hospital and then home.
Its only when you have been a watcher at one of the exercises that you get even a partial clue about whats going on. Or about your status as the pilot. your not presumed innocent until evidence appears to show a crime. Your actually guilty but uncharged until all avenues of evidence have shown that you are actually not guilty of anything.
Once you have been to one the advice from BALPA about keeping your mouth shut to everybody until legal advise is present becomes very good advise even for private pilots.
Its only when you have been a watcher at one of the exercises that you get even a partial clue about whats going on. Or about your status as the pilot. your not presumed innocent until evidence appears to show a crime. Your actually guilty but uncharged until all avenues of evidence have shown that you are actually not guilty of anything.
Once you have been to one the advice from BALPA about keeping your mouth shut to everybody until legal advise is present becomes very good advise even for private pilots.
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Sent this to the Editor of ASN...
I think the fact that 2 aircraft registrations that were incorrect were added to this site is an utter disgrace! People who are trying to ascertain the whereabouts of friends and family see the information, look at G-INFO and come up with the wrong answer. There should be a delay in allowing postings of registration and other pertinent details until friends and family have been informed and ensure the info is correct! E mail me at XXX-------XXX if the editor cares to answer!!!
The reply...
I have to agree with you on that. It disturbed me too. Most changes have to be approved first and usually I do not approve a post with speculative information or information without reference to a source.
There are however a few trusted users that have shown in the past to be knowledgable and diligent. These users are able to update information without approval. It seems that one user violated his trust by posting unsubstantiated information.
I will e-mail him about this behaviour and will closely watch his future updates. Thanks for sharing your concern.
I think the fact that 2 aircraft registrations that were incorrect were added to this site is an utter disgrace! People who are trying to ascertain the whereabouts of friends and family see the information, look at G-INFO and come up with the wrong answer. There should be a delay in allowing postings of registration and other pertinent details until friends and family have been informed and ensure the info is correct! E mail me at XXX-------XXX if the editor cares to answer!!!
The reply...
I have to agree with you on that. It disturbed me too. Most changes have to be approved first and usually I do not approve a post with speculative information or information without reference to a source.
There are however a few trusted users that have shown in the past to be knowledgable and diligent. These users are able to update information without approval. It seems that one user violated his trust by posting unsubstantiated information.
I will e-mail him about this behaviour and will closely watch his future updates. Thanks for sharing your concern.
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Nice one ballyctid, thank you.
Pitts2112 I've PM'd you.
Sleeve Wing. The emergency services response was excellent. There were no more coppers than were necessary to protect safety and scene integrity and to carry out their investigations. Their behaviour and attitude was very respectful and professional and they recognised that members of the aviation community present might know more about things than they did.
I know this is unusual on the basis of previous experience at other incidents both at Leicester and other airfields, but this time they were superb.
Pitts2112 I've PM'd you.
Sleeve Wing. The emergency services response was excellent. There were no more coppers than were necessary to protect safety and scene integrity and to carry out their investigations. Their behaviour and attitude was very respectful and professional and they recognised that members of the aviation community present might know more about things than they did.
I know this is unusual on the basis of previous experience at other incidents both at Leicester and other airfields, but this time they were superb.
Last edited by fwjc; 20th Dec 2011 at 10:40.
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Regarding PCAS in the circuit.....I joined a circuit one busy Sunday a couple of years back in the winter with a low hazy sun, and it was like the M25 at rush hour. There was also a student in the circuit incorrectly reporting his position and flying low. It was only because the G496 started shouting traffic and showing a yellow dot just in front of us that made us swing the nose around and low and behold a C152 appeared just below our nose. It was a typical scenario of low wing aeroplane higher than a high wing aeroplane and as we were slightly faster we'd have got pretty close I reckon.
So in my view, yes PCAS is worth every penny. I am sure FLARM would be better but until everyone has it, or there is a dual system then it is of limited use.
So in my view, yes PCAS is worth every penny. I am sure FLARM would be better but until everyone has it, or there is a dual system then it is of limited use.
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Once you have been to one the advice from BALPA about keeping your mouth shut to everybody until legal advise is present becomes very good advise even for private pilots.
Having lived with a member of the local CID for a number of years (not in the biblical sense, I hasten to add) I would advise anybody to adopt the silence policy of a trappist monk, whenever the plods are within earshot, irrespective of circumstance.
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"Just a bit of a personal rant about the quality of the modern-day officer-of-the-law and the dubious qualifications that are deemed to be sufficient to allow him to get involved with something about which he doesn't have a clue. In my opinion he then becomes more of a nuisance than a rubbernecking member of the public."
Yes, so we will train every response cop to be an expert in aviation accidents to the same level as the AAIB, and rail crashes too obviously, and response to COMAH sites, and non COMAH industrial accidents, CBRN (E) would need to be covered, and fires to the same standard as fire and rescue, because cops are normally there first, better add marine accidents to that list, oh what about hospital evacuation, oil refinery accidents, and fuel pumping stations too....shouldn't make basic training more than say five years.
That's why you have incident plans; you resource to a certain level first (because those six cars were probably all the available resources from that side of Leicestershire), as soon as the first unit gets there they give a SAD CHALET assessment to enable the response to be scaled up or down.
Yes, so we will train every response cop to be an expert in aviation accidents to the same level as the AAIB, and rail crashes too obviously, and response to COMAH sites, and non COMAH industrial accidents, CBRN (E) would need to be covered, and fires to the same standard as fire and rescue, because cops are normally there first, better add marine accidents to that list, oh what about hospital evacuation, oil refinery accidents, and fuel pumping stations too....shouldn't make basic training more than say five years.
That's why you have incident plans; you resource to a certain level first (because those six cars were probably all the available resources from that side of Leicestershire), as soon as the first unit gets there they give a SAD CHALET assessment to enable the response to be scaled up or down.
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Just as suggestion pitofrost.
In this case obviously from the reply on here they did a sterling job.
Maybe it could be part of training for the white hats? They will have more clue about bent metal, fuel every where and folk needing cut out and protecting the scene than anyone else.
In this case obviously from the reply on here they did a sterling job.
Maybe it could be part of training for the white hats? They will have more clue about bent metal, fuel every where and folk needing cut out and protecting the scene than anyone else.
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I love the way some people take any opportunity to bash the police. Just remember there are some cops out there who have ATPLs, how do you know one of the cops there was not an aviation expert! As opposed to some of the weekend warriors on here!
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You know all's will do doubt know how to investigate fatal road traffic accidents murders, manslaughter and all the other incidents which the Police are tasked to investigate! when you fail miserably perhaps you will understand why most Police Officers have little experience of Aviation.
The Police have two tasks at Aviation incidents firstly to try to save life and protect the public and secondly to conduct and investigation jointly with the AAIB to establish what has actually happened and whether there is any criminal liability involved.
It is not necessary for the Police Investigating Officer who will be a Senior Detective of the local force to have an in depth knowledge of Aviation as he can rely on the expertise of the best resources available in the UK or if necessary world wide. He will be assisted by a team of others usually comprised of Detective Officers and Forensic Science officers.
The initial response Officers will be involved in saving lives and hopefully protecting the Public and Diverting traffic and managing the Press if that is an issue. It will also be part of their role to secure the scene and prevent evidence being compromised.
The Police treat Air Traffic incidents very seriously as there is always likely to be loss of life or serious injuries. The scene may have to be secured for many hours and traffic diversions put in place. For these reasons hopefully the initial response will always be high in terms of Officer numbers.
The initial response is likely the same as would be the case in very serious Road Traffic Accidents where similar issues are likely to be involved.
I suggest some of you crawl out from behind the warmth and safety of your computer key boards and join up! It will be an eye opening experience I can assure you of that and being multi skilled as you obviously are you won't need much training?
Now where's that plaster for the raw nerve!
The Police have two tasks at Aviation incidents firstly to try to save life and protect the public and secondly to conduct and investigation jointly with the AAIB to establish what has actually happened and whether there is any criminal liability involved.
It is not necessary for the Police Investigating Officer who will be a Senior Detective of the local force to have an in depth knowledge of Aviation as he can rely on the expertise of the best resources available in the UK or if necessary world wide. He will be assisted by a team of others usually comprised of Detective Officers and Forensic Science officers.
The initial response Officers will be involved in saving lives and hopefully protecting the Public and Diverting traffic and managing the Press if that is an issue. It will also be part of their role to secure the scene and prevent evidence being compromised.
The Police treat Air Traffic incidents very seriously as there is always likely to be loss of life or serious injuries. The scene may have to be secured for many hours and traffic diversions put in place. For these reasons hopefully the initial response will always be high in terms of Officer numbers.
The initial response is likely the same as would be the case in very serious Road Traffic Accidents where similar issues are likely to be involved.
I suggest some of you crawl out from behind the warmth and safety of your computer key boards and join up! It will be an eye opening experience I can assure you of that and being multi skilled as you obviously are you won't need much training?
Now where's that plaster for the raw nerve!
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Also spare a thought in your 'scoops' for the LAC fire crew who were first on the scene and in the tower and knowing it was a friend who perished!
Discussion Is good after the event but things are still raw and people reporting wrong registrations and pretending to be from agencies to get details is frankly sick!
Discussion Is good after the event but things are still raw and people reporting wrong registrations and pretending to be from agencies to get details is frankly sick!
As has been said (and even with full-up Mil-spec ETCAS), TCAS azimuth information cannot be relied upon!!
In any case, the rate of heading change of most light GA would render any sensible TCAS azimuth processing completely useless. It simply wouldn't be able to compute any advisories.
TCAS must only be used within its specific criteria - NEVER try to use it for anything else. Even the USAF were stupid enough to try that, until they learned why they shouldn't.
The only way to have any reasonable assurance of collision avoidance in the average GA spamcan is to fly under radar control under strictly regulated IFR conditions. If you're happy with such an expensive and boring way of flying, well that's fine. Otherwise, until every flying object has to datalink its position/heading/height/speed to a ground processor so that it can be uplinked as a poor man's JTIDS, you will still need to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and away from the Garmin eye candy whenever you're flying in VMC - even if under IFR!
Your choice.....00
In any case, the rate of heading change of most light GA would render any sensible TCAS azimuth processing completely useless. It simply wouldn't be able to compute any advisories.
TCAS must only be used within its specific criteria - NEVER try to use it for anything else. Even the USAF were stupid enough to try that, until they learned why they shouldn't.
The only way to have any reasonable assurance of collision avoidance in the average GA spamcan is to fly under radar control under strictly regulated IFR conditions. If you're happy with such an expensive and boring way of flying, well that's fine. Otherwise, until every flying object has to datalink its position/heading/height/speed to a ground processor so that it can be uplinked as a poor man's JTIDS, you will still need to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and away from the Garmin eye candy whenever you're flying in VMC - even if under IFR!
Your choice.....00
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All I've seen on the Flyer forum is an announcement that it was a well known forum member (so, just enough to get people worried), and then a refusal to allow any more discussion or information to be shared. There's certainly nothing on there that could be classed reliable information or valuable discussion.