Mid Air at Leicester Aerodrome
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Pilot dies after a 'midair collision' in Leicestershire | This is Leicestershire
Kinda gives it away looking at the comments... (nothing to do with me)
Very sad RIP
Kinda gives it away looking at the comments... (nothing to do with me)
Very sad RIP
can we get that link down its wrong and that spreads rumors
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Quite frankly I think the "ASN" site is a disgrace! There's no way one should be allowed to guess at the ID of a downed aircraft for obvious reasons, surely it's moderated?
G-INFO is another outrage in today's climate of "Data Protection"
G-INFO is another outrage in today's climate of "Data Protection"
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I for one will not be updating that disgusting site where it's clear that people are making misinformed guesses so sick people can look up details of pilots on G-INFO while the family are still trying to assimilate what has happened. Some twisted individuals clearly think that the rights of the family to be told first are not relevant. Details will come out in due course when the official agencies have carried out their investigations. While I'm 99% sure I have understood what happened, I'm not willing to discuss until all of the investigations are complete.
As for respect for the people and families concerned, it seems some inhuman insensitive idiots out there have no concern for them. I hope the families of the rubberneckers never have to go through this, but I can't imagine these selfish pigs can have anyone who cares about them enough, otherwise they would show some sensitivity.
As for respect for the people and families concerned, it seems some inhuman insensitive idiots out there have no concern for them. I hope the families of the rubberneckers never have to go through this, but I can't imagine these selfish pigs can have anyone who cares about them enough, otherwise they would show some sensitivity.
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Seeing has to be learned
I am against media sensationalism and understand those that wish to keep the subject as lo-key as possible. However, I agree with "Pull What" and "Peterh337" that where pilot/operator awareness is raised and genuine flight safety issues can be learned then it is a shame that there is no flight safety thread on pprune where all varieties of aviation safety can be discussed in a professional manner. Learning from accidents, whether tragic or near misses, to prevent further loss of life is not dis-respectful to those who have lost loved ones. My prayers are with the latter.
While we await the AAIB reports, here is an excellent article about what the RAF call "See and Avoid" that sharpened my thoughts at least:
"Seeing has to be learned:
DG-Flugzeugbau.de : Seeing has to be Learned "
While we await the AAIB reports, here is an excellent article about what the RAF call "See and Avoid" that sharpened my thoughts at least:
"Seeing has to be learned:
DG-Flugzeugbau.de : Seeing has to be Learned "
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fwjc, mrloudly
A nice rant but surely the answer is to put the correct registrations somewhere. Why is there such a fear of putting information on Pprune, whereas links to another site are OK
I think I know one of the aircraft involved but there are several yellow Pitts and it is difficult to go ringing around at a time like this.
A nice rant but surely the answer is to put the correct registrations somewhere. Why is there such a fear of putting information on Pprune, whereas links to another site are OK
I think I know one of the aircraft involved but there are several yellow Pitts and it is difficult to go ringing around at a time like this.
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If you're bothered about safety implications, what does it matter what letters were painted on the sides of the aeroplanes?
If you're bothered about safety implications, wouldn't it be better to wait until an accurate analysis has been undertaken by experts with all the information available to them rather than piecing together half truths and rumours?
If you're a perverted voyeur then feel free to dismiss the dignity and respect to those that are directly affected. If you're that worried about safety and think that there's some earth shattering learning to be had from this incident (that you feel you know better than the authorities), I recommend you ground yourself until the report's out, since your selfish ego is the biggest air safety issue.
If not, heed other's advice on here about previous work on mid-air and be patient for goodness' sake until the reports come out.
If you're bothered about safety implications, wouldn't it be better to wait until an accurate analysis has been undertaken by experts with all the information available to them rather than piecing together half truths and rumours?
If you're a perverted voyeur then feel free to dismiss the dignity and respect to those that are directly affected. If you're that worried about safety and think that there's some earth shattering learning to be had from this incident (that you feel you know better than the authorities), I recommend you ground yourself until the report's out, since your selfish ego is the biggest air safety issue.
If not, heed other's advice on here about previous work on mid-air and be patient for goodness' sake until the reports come out.
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Ps mrloudly I agree with you re GINFO, although it has come in handy for me in the past. My involvement in registered aircraft is purposely hidden on there and I know a number of other people who do the same.
Just an observation :-
I had an engine failure in an aircraft about 6 years ago and all of a sudden was surrounded by police cars. The damage was minor and no-one was injured. Apart from a couple who knew what they were doing, the other officers from at least another four cars then just stood around looking at each other.
>>>> Dozens of police officers were at the scene to redirect traffic, interview witnesses and assist fire crews. <<<<
How often do you see a police car/policeman on the Gartree Road?
And then dozens..!!
Don't they allocate manpower or use their radios ?
Why is it that, when you want a copper, you can never find one ?
Oh, and am I the only one that is concerned by this ?
I had an engine failure in an aircraft about 6 years ago and all of a sudden was surrounded by police cars. The damage was minor and no-one was injured. Apart from a couple who knew what they were doing, the other officers from at least another four cars then just stood around looking at each other.
>>>> Dozens of police officers were at the scene to redirect traffic, interview witnesses and assist fire crews. <<<<
How often do you see a police car/policeman on the Gartree Road?
And then dozens..!!
Don't they allocate manpower or use their radios ?
Why is it that, when you want a copper, you can never find one ?
Oh, and am I the only one that is concerned by this ?
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Bose, this, and all that follows is a response to your question about Flarm, and is not related to the recent sad event that sparked this thread.
Yes, Flarm requires other flying things to have Flarm if it is to alert you to collision. But – that’s all it needs - £600 upwards, for each entity.
And each entity can be virtually all GA, power, gliders, hang gliders I believe, flexwing microlites, balloons (not that one is likely to miss seeing one of those), parapents etc..
Whereas transponders (£1500 minimum, plus installation, certification etc.) do not detect each other at all. And as you know, many/most flying entities cannot have them.
A transponder only helps if you also have ATC radar service (or something that emulates it), and/or PCAS or more – the latter being an additional cost from £300 up to (Peter says) £15,000.
Transponder + PCAS etc is NEVER going to be universal.
In the long term, ADS-B will provide a platform. I believe that is at least 10 years away, and who knows if that will be mandatory, and/or if the low, slow and unpowered non-electric population of flying things will be able to use it. Meanwhile – how many fatal collisions will there be in the UK? How many could Flarm be reasonably able to address, and (I believe) mostly prevent for Flarm/Flarm entities?
I did some back-of-envelope calculations for gliding, and it looked like equipping the whole UK fleet (about 2300 gliders) would cost about £1.4 million. If 10 years fatal collision statistics would otherwise continue without Flarm, in the next 10 we could expect to lose another 8 people in gliding collision with other gliders and (occasionally) powered GA. Maybe this would only be 1-3 with wider Flarm adoption. Nobody knows, but that is what I think. Is it worth £1.4 million to save 5-7 lives?
For Individual gliders to fit PCAS, 100% fitment in 2300 gliders would cost about £1,000,000. If history is anything to go by, that would address 2 collisions causing 3 fatalities over a 40 year period. Is it worth it?
I went for both Flarm and PCAS. I would still rather have the alerts when it works, and the extra chance of avoidance. I would also prefer that enough people adopt it to reduce the fatality rate. I was not prepared to wait for the “ultimate” solution, if it ever arrives.
About £1000 buys a Flarm and a simple PCAS, and gives in my opinion a huge leap in improved safety without needing EASA and other obstacles to be overcome. Not perfect, not 100 percent, but a big improvement.
If anybody thinks it is too expensive, could you justify that to a coroner’s court? Or to the family of somebody who has died in a collision? (This, and all the above, is a general question which I have posed before, and to repeat, is not related to the recent sad event that sparked this thread.)
Chris N.
Yes, Flarm requires other flying things to have Flarm if it is to alert you to collision. But – that’s all it needs - £600 upwards, for each entity.
And each entity can be virtually all GA, power, gliders, hang gliders I believe, flexwing microlites, balloons (not that one is likely to miss seeing one of those), parapents etc..
Whereas transponders (£1500 minimum, plus installation, certification etc.) do not detect each other at all. And as you know, many/most flying entities cannot have them.
A transponder only helps if you also have ATC radar service (or something that emulates it), and/or PCAS or more – the latter being an additional cost from £300 up to (Peter says) £15,000.
Transponder + PCAS etc is NEVER going to be universal.
In the long term, ADS-B will provide a platform. I believe that is at least 10 years away, and who knows if that will be mandatory, and/or if the low, slow and unpowered non-electric population of flying things will be able to use it. Meanwhile – how many fatal collisions will there be in the UK? How many could Flarm be reasonably able to address, and (I believe) mostly prevent for Flarm/Flarm entities?
I did some back-of-envelope calculations for gliding, and it looked like equipping the whole UK fleet (about 2300 gliders) would cost about £1.4 million. If 10 years fatal collision statistics would otherwise continue without Flarm, in the next 10 we could expect to lose another 8 people in gliding collision with other gliders and (occasionally) powered GA. Maybe this would only be 1-3 with wider Flarm adoption. Nobody knows, but that is what I think. Is it worth £1.4 million to save 5-7 lives?
For Individual gliders to fit PCAS, 100% fitment in 2300 gliders would cost about £1,000,000. If history is anything to go by, that would address 2 collisions causing 3 fatalities over a 40 year period. Is it worth it?
I went for both Flarm and PCAS. I would still rather have the alerts when it works, and the extra chance of avoidance. I would also prefer that enough people adopt it to reduce the fatality rate. I was not prepared to wait for the “ultimate” solution, if it ever arrives.
About £1000 buys a Flarm and a simple PCAS, and gives in my opinion a huge leap in improved safety without needing EASA and other obstacles to be overcome. Not perfect, not 100 percent, but a big improvement.
If anybody thinks it is too expensive, could you justify that to a coroner’s court? Or to the family of somebody who has died in a collision? (This, and all the above, is a general question which I have posed before, and to repeat, is not related to the recent sad event that sparked this thread.)
Chris N.
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The problem here Chrisi is that a grand is a lot of money to most people, getting them to spend it on flarm is going to be a tall order. It also depends in the value the industry as a whole places on a life. In reality the numbers of lives you are claiming it will save, probably does not add up economically. The numbers are just not big enough especially as the hours flown recreationally are in decline.
I support the concept but I am realistic enough to understand its probably never going to happen.
Edit for iPad spelling.....
I support the concept but I am realistic enough to understand its probably never going to happen.
Edit for iPad spelling.....
Last edited by S-Works; 19th Dec 2011 at 19:15.
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Each authority has an emergency plan for an aircraft crash and they just do that every time.
Unfortunately the crash can be a two seater or another Locherbie, you get the same responce until an adult with enough rank that can say "don't be so bloody stupid" comes along.
Also as well all crashes are criminal investigations until proven otherwise.
Unfortunately the crash can be a two seater or another Locherbie, you get the same responce until an adult with enough rank that can say "don't be so bloody stupid" comes along.
Also as well all crashes are criminal investigations until proven otherwise.
(continuing the thread diversion...)
Did I hear the Flarm product depends on proprietary technology, so that one is bound hand and foot to one supplier? And that said supplier has already imposed unannounced and payable and mandatory upgrades?
I appreciate the intrinsic merit of the product, and it does seem to offer good value for money. I think I'd prefer to pay a bit more for technology that works to known and published standards, with multiple suppliers on the market.
But I must admit I only heard such rumours, that may be both wildly incorrect and out of date.
Did I hear the Flarm product depends on proprietary technology, so that one is bound hand and foot to one supplier? And that said supplier has already imposed unannounced and payable and mandatory upgrades?
I appreciate the intrinsic merit of the product, and it does seem to offer good value for money. I think I'd prefer to pay a bit more for technology that works to known and published standards, with multiple suppliers on the market.
But I must admit I only heard such rumours, that may be both wildly incorrect and out of date.
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Well, over a quarter of UK gliders now have Flarm, and still increasing, and almost none have transpondrs.
IF (I think a big if, but who knows) Flarm were made mandatory for UK gliding competitions – following a trend in some other countries, e.g. Australia, it would rapidly grow some more. I don’t see Flarm being mandatory for gliders in the foreseeable future, but it is likely to become closer to 100 percent in many of the larger clubs, and some smaller ones, in the southern/eastern quarter or more of England. Peer pressure is part of that.
I think PowerFlarm is likely to be taken up by a small proportion of power pilots. Whether that will seed a wider pattern of use, I have no idea. I hope so, as does Rod1, no doubt. It has taken off in the USA among glider pilots there; even before it was launched, they pre-sold about 600 units, following some high-profile fatal collisions in recent years.
I see parallels with some other safety things. Some aerobatic pilots have helmets, some not. Ditto parachutes. Virtually all glider pilots use parachutes, but to use one you have to (a) survive the collision, (b) be conscious and capable, and (c) be high enough to jump out and have it deploy in time. The options in many powered aircraft appear to be worse. Last time I was in one, I had a real struggle to get out on the ground (I have mobility problems). In the air, I think no chance in time.
Chris N.
IF (I think a big if, but who knows) Flarm were made mandatory for UK gliding competitions – following a trend in some other countries, e.g. Australia, it would rapidly grow some more. I don’t see Flarm being mandatory for gliders in the foreseeable future, but it is likely to become closer to 100 percent in many of the larger clubs, and some smaller ones, in the southern/eastern quarter or more of England. Peer pressure is part of that.
I think PowerFlarm is likely to be taken up by a small proportion of power pilots. Whether that will seed a wider pattern of use, I have no idea. I hope so, as does Rod1, no doubt. It has taken off in the USA among glider pilots there; even before it was launched, they pre-sold about 600 units, following some high-profile fatal collisions in recent years.
I see parallels with some other safety things. Some aerobatic pilots have helmets, some not. Ditto parachutes. Virtually all glider pilots use parachutes, but to use one you have to (a) survive the collision, (b) be conscious and capable, and (c) be high enough to jump out and have it deploy in time. The options in many powered aircraft appear to be worse. Last time I was in one, I had a real struggle to get out on the ground (I have mobility problems). In the air, I think no chance in time.
Chris N.
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Jan, there are several suppliers, but I expect they all pay a licence fee to the originators. There is no other way if they are all to work the same way, AIUI.
There are mandatory, but NO-COST, upgrades. That is necessary, according to Flarm, to ensure ongoing interoperability (horrid word, but the CAA used it first!). I have had two, so far, at 3-year intervals, both free. They are pre-announced. If you buy a unit, ask when the next is (I think 2014).
Chris N.
PS – by the way, PowerFlarm (a different supplier, AIUI) appear to do free upgrades too. Early users of the pre-sold ones in the USA are getting free software and hardware (antenna or something) upgrades.
There are mandatory, but NO-COST, upgrades. That is necessary, according to Flarm, to ensure ongoing interoperability (horrid word, but the CAA used it first!). I have had two, so far, at 3-year intervals, both free. They are pre-announced. If you buy a unit, ask when the next is (I think 2014).
Chris N.
PS – by the way, PowerFlarm (a different supplier, AIUI) appear to do free upgrades too. Early users of the pre-sold ones in the USA are getting free software and hardware (antenna or something) upgrades.
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So far all Flarm upgrades are free. They are also mandatory though the next schedule upgrade isn't until 2015 according to the Flarm website - there was one in Feb this year.
The Flarm technology is proprietary but there are a small number of makers producing Flarm equipment of various kinds.
The Flarm technology is proprietary but there are a small number of makers producing Flarm equipment of various kinds.
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Even on latest software release of TCAS 2, azimuth data cannot be trusted. Indeed I have seen contacts move from one side of a TCAS screen to the other and back again at an impossible speed. Also it encourages people to try and avoid laterally against a display that can't be trusted. I have seen apparently professional pilots do this so dread to think the carnage it may cause in the wrong hands.
I'm sure the actual technology to make this happen safely is out there though so who knows what the future will bring.
This however would require transponder equipped a/c actually turning on this piece of equipment. The attitude that one is somehow 'beating the system' by leaving it off ' cos I can' is sadly all too prevalent in GA. it's not clever or safe so why these plonkers continue to do it is beyond me. There is a whole bigger picture out there they are missing.
I'm sure the actual technology to make this happen safely is out there though so who knows what the future will bring.
This however would require transponder equipped a/c actually turning on this piece of equipment. The attitude that one is somehow 'beating the system' by leaving it off ' cos I can' is sadly all too prevalent in GA. it's not clever or safe so why these plonkers continue to do it is beyond me. There is a whole bigger picture out there they are missing.
Thx, mad_jock,
You are of course correct................the standard EMC plan is actioned no matter what the extent of the incident.
>>>>> Unfortunately the crash can be a two seater or another Locherbie, you get the same responce until an adult with enough rank that can say "don't be so bloody stupid" comes along. <<<<<
Just a bit of a personal rant about the quality of the modern-day officer-of-the-law and the dubious qualifications that are deemed to be sufficient to allow him to get involved with something about which he doesn't have a clue. In my opinion he then becomes more of a nuisance than a rubbernecking member of the public.
You are of course correct................the standard EMC plan is actioned no matter what the extent of the incident.
>>>>> Unfortunately the crash can be a two seater or another Locherbie, you get the same responce until an adult with enough rank that can say "don't be so bloody stupid" comes along. <<<<<
Just a bit of a personal rant about the quality of the modern-day officer-of-the-law and the dubious qualifications that are deemed to be sufficient to allow him to get involved with something about which he doesn't have a clue. In my opinion he then becomes more of a nuisance than a rubbernecking member of the public.
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 20th Dec 2011 at 09:12.