Navigating over a gliding site
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Navigating over a gliding site
I've been asked to plan a route which includes a turning point over Sutton Bank gliding site, I've checked my chart and they launch unto 3000ft, I know I'm in my rights to fly above it or would I be a complete idiot to do so?
Thanks in advance Gents
Thanks in advance Gents
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Okay, who asked you to plan a route over Sutton Bank? why?
I would go back to that particular person and say I prefer to avoid active gliding sites, I am not a glider pilot, and do not understand their requirements or activities. Why not vector me over an active military danger area instead? there's less likely to be any activity!
Though of course if it is pissing down with rain, or fog, and you are IMC qualified, you may be able to fly at an MSA to avoid the interesting folds of the landscape in that vicinity, and not be upset by any of the challenging wave activity that can be found downwind of the uplands....
Sutton Bank is an active gliding site. Trouble with your average spamcan pilot is he or she is typically spending more time looking inside the cockpit than out, navigating with the latest gadgets, monitoring the gauges, talking on the radio, changing frequencies, and making sure the skid ball is in the middle. The average glider pilot on a good day is to be found in gaggles, under streets of cumulus, dolphining to use best lift. And some distance away from the gliding site. On a not very good day, the average local glider pilot will be working the ridge to stay airborne, following the rules of ridge soaring. Are you acquainted with these practices?
Best of all, before you decide on your cross country flight, why not visit Sutton Bank by road, they are really nice people, and have yourself a glider lesson. It can do no harm, and may indeed broaden your horizons.
I would go back to that particular person and say I prefer to avoid active gliding sites, I am not a glider pilot, and do not understand their requirements or activities. Why not vector me over an active military danger area instead? there's less likely to be any activity!
Though of course if it is pissing down with rain, or fog, and you are IMC qualified, you may be able to fly at an MSA to avoid the interesting folds of the landscape in that vicinity, and not be upset by any of the challenging wave activity that can be found downwind of the uplands....
Sutton Bank is an active gliding site. Trouble with your average spamcan pilot is he or she is typically spending more time looking inside the cockpit than out, navigating with the latest gadgets, monitoring the gauges, talking on the radio, changing frequencies, and making sure the skid ball is in the middle. The average glider pilot on a good day is to be found in gaggles, under streets of cumulus, dolphining to use best lift. And some distance away from the gliding site. On a not very good day, the average local glider pilot will be working the ridge to stay airborne, following the rules of ridge soaring. Are you acquainted with these practices?
Best of all, before you decide on your cross country flight, why not visit Sutton Bank by road, they are really nice people, and have yourself a glider lesson. It can do no harm, and may indeed broaden your horizons.
I suggest that you make a visit on the ground and discuss this with the Gliding fraternity.......... Sutton Bank have all types of Lift ( Thermal, Ridge and Wave) and I think they do operate every day throughout the year........
Personally, I would avoid it completely unless the weather was CAVOK and wind s were less than 5 knots........even then I would overfly well above 3000 feet.
Personally, I would avoid it completely unless the weather was CAVOK and wind s were less than 5 knots........even then I would overfly well above 3000 feet.
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As above. I often ask students to plan a straight line route to overfly an active glider site just to see if they have the sense to question what that actually is and take the action to plan around it. If you turn up to the flight planned to fly around the glider site, you can't go wrong.
I often ask students to plan a straight line route to overfly an active glider site....
Surely if the gliding site actually has a passing height on the charts it's almost better to transit centrally overhead and avoid them that way ?
Otherwise why bother with any height - or 'ATZ' ?
Going to one side or the other, IMHO, even outside the circle on the chart offers a greater risk of intercepting glider(s) departing or returning. Overhead at the right height is acceptable over airfields
As for the implication above that motorised pilots don't look out enough, especially when poor glider pilots are apparently too busy themselves to ditto ? Well I ask you.
All pilots must keep a good and frequent scan look out, regardless of what a/c they happen to be in.
mike hallam.
Otherwise why bother with any height - or 'ATZ' ?
Going to one side or the other, IMHO, even outside the circle on the chart offers a greater risk of intercepting glider(s) departing or returning. Overhead at the right height is acceptable over airfields
As for the implication above that motorised pilots don't look out enough, especially when poor glider pilots are apparently too busy themselves to ditto ? Well I ask you.
All pilots must keep a good and frequent scan look out, regardless of what a/c they happen to be in.
mike hallam.
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One more option for flying through/over a gliding site is to find their frequency and give them a call. You'll soon find out how they're feeling about transit traffic, and whether you can negotiate passage through. Otherwise I'd stay well clear for my own safety! Having flown gliders a while ago, I remember going solo after about 3 hours roughly (about 6-7 dual aerotows) along with the rest of our group. Not sure I'd had the ability to deal with a rogue powered type.
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lt is difficult to stomach what has been said about gliding sites on this forum.
Fly through, around, the wire with the little parachute on is best avoided, any gliding site that would actively restrict activity needs bombing.
l speak as an instructor with a little more 10,000 instructional flights from years ago.
lf we can`t open the airways, which was the ambition for years, then we really ought to shut up on restricting others.
lt would be unfair.
The bottom line of course is does the site have an ATZ ?
Act accordingly.
Exercise your legal rights my friend, or else you will lose them.
Fly through, around, the wire with the little parachute on is best avoided, any gliding site that would actively restrict activity needs bombing.
l speak as an instructor with a little more 10,000 instructional flights from years ago.
lf we can`t open the airways, which was the ambition for years, then we really ought to shut up on restricting others.
lt would be unfair.
The bottom line of course is does the site have an ATZ ?
Act accordingly.
Exercise your legal rights my friend, or else you will lose them.
Last edited by overun; 29th Oct 2011 at 09:43. Reason: no need to be mean
I suggest that you read the AIC Y083/11 available on NATS | AIS
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Fly through, around, the wire with the little parachute on is best avoided, any gliding site that would actively restrict activity needs bombing.
Glider -v- Spamcan? Glider pilots wear parachutes.
Having read the paragraph on how close gliders may fly to each other in the AIC reminded me of a recent trip in the clubs 172...
It was a Saturday afternoon and the weather was geared toward gliding. On passing Milton Keynes at 2400ft the FISO gave us the warning that there was vast quanitites of gliding activity all over the place. Wide eyed we continued along our route.
Not more than 5 minutes later we saw 4 gliders on the nose thermalling from approx 1000ft below to 1000ft above some 8 miles ahead. Noise abatement (along with something to do with rights of way and rules of the air) suggested that we alter our course. Out to the right was free from traffic. Upon looking left and slightly rearward I found 2 of the damn things tagging along in a loose line-astern formation; both pilots greeting my discovery with a friendly wave! A brief wing-rock in return, then a turn to the right was made in good time before tangoing with a thermal stack.
Oh to reminisce
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Mike Hallum and GeeWhiz, couple of the points you raise need further thought on the part of the intrepid cross country power pilot.
First, calling the gliding ground frequency will probably get no answer at all. They don't work on radio, chaps. If a glider has to land back at the airfield, he has to land, so no point asking permission. Result, if the lift peters out, everybody comes back at once, and they avoid each other by lookout and good judgement, not by talking on the radio. Few gliding clubs have somebody sitting at the launchpoint to listen out and very very few gliding clubs are entitled to control traffic. So just because nobody answers your call doesn't mean they are not active.
As for flying overhead to clear potential winch launch cables, o my. Sure, our Skylaunch can lob us up to l,800 feet on a good day, so what do we do next? if we are lucky enough to connect with a thermal, we keep on going up. And up and up, to cloudbase. Directly over the airfield. So depending on conditions, a gliding site like Lasham for instance, will have gliders swarming overhead from the top of the launch to the controlled airspace!
Still think its safe to proceed after a radio call? and still think its safe to fly directly overhead?
Yes, exercise your legal rights, by all means. But if you have no gliding experience or understanding of their peculiar habits, please keep a very good lookout in all uncontrolled airspace, and use judgement when planning your flight. Probably the best plan is to fly above any fair weather cumulus. Less bumpy, fewer gliders.
First, calling the gliding ground frequency will probably get no answer at all. They don't work on radio, chaps. If a glider has to land back at the airfield, he has to land, so no point asking permission. Result, if the lift peters out, everybody comes back at once, and they avoid each other by lookout and good judgement, not by talking on the radio. Few gliding clubs have somebody sitting at the launchpoint to listen out and very very few gliding clubs are entitled to control traffic. So just because nobody answers your call doesn't mean they are not active.
As for flying overhead to clear potential winch launch cables, o my. Sure, our Skylaunch can lob us up to l,800 feet on a good day, so what do we do next? if we are lucky enough to connect with a thermal, we keep on going up. And up and up, to cloudbase. Directly over the airfield. So depending on conditions, a gliding site like Lasham for instance, will have gliders swarming overhead from the top of the launch to the controlled airspace!
Still think its safe to proceed after a radio call? and still think its safe to fly directly overhead?
Yes, exercise your legal rights, by all means. But if you have no gliding experience or understanding of their peculiar habits, please keep a very good lookout in all uncontrolled airspace, and use judgement when planning your flight. Probably the best plan is to fly above any fair weather cumulus. Less bumpy, fewer gliders.
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First, calling the gliding ground frequency will probably get no answer at all.
I fly from a small airfield where the radio operator is not always present; in this instance pilots sometimes provide arriving traffic with a runway, pressures, and approxmate surface wind from their own departure (of course all taken in an advisory manner, but still helpful).
Personally I would not recommend flying over or too near to gliding sites and actively avoid them myself, but. If there is a telephone or frequency conversation that can be had to increase safety and provide a safe transit, why not? Also there are some gliding sites that sit between low altitude CAS and danger areas active to flight level nosebleed. Should the powered pilot not be able to fly in or above cloud this could get sticky. I'm sure a little diplomacy and understanding are all that's needed. Its open FIR, share and share alike.
The bottom line of course is does the site have an ATZ ?
The CAA has highlighted this recently in relation to the many airfields that are no longer licensed but still active.
The traffic pattern of a winch launch glider site can extend to the maximum authorised launch height at that site.
Regarding lookout - there is a greater onus on the power pilot to look out because he/she is required to give way to gliders. (That should get a few responses!)
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Respect
"I know I'm in my rights to fly above it or would I be a complete idiot to do so?"
With 'rights' go commonsense and responsibility. It might be alright to use this site as a turning point, but is it the most practical option? You could make an r/t call to check activity etc, but ultimately why plan to increase your workload?
Not quite sure what the nav learning would be from this element of the exercise.
With 'rights' go commonsense and responsibility. It might be alright to use this site as a turning point, but is it the most practical option? You could make an r/t call to check activity etc, but ultimately why plan to increase your workload?
Not quite sure what the nav learning would be from this element of the exercise.
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Not quite sure what the nav learning would be from this element of the exercise.
I suspect that your instructor is testing your airmanship & flight planning skills.
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Probably the best plan is to fly above any fair weather cumulus. Less bumpy, fewer gliders.
In a glider it's very hard to climb in any kind of thermal above the first layer of fair weather cumulus. You'd have to go IMC (in the cumulus itself), or be launched (either by tug or winch) above it. So by flying above the first cumulus-layer, you are pretty safe from gliding activity. Not entirely, but I dare say 99% of the gliding activity will be below that first layer.
Exception of course is when there's ridge or wave lift. Particularly in wave fantastic heights can be achieved.
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still think its safe to fly directly overhead?
Avoid imitations
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BGA and Ramblers association (or just "Ramblers" as they now call themselves).
Funny how you never see both in the same room...
Funny how you never see both in the same room...