Round out / flare & other "terms"
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Round out / flare & other "terms"
Round out & flare - are they the same thing or do they mean slightly different like in the following sentence :
"During a flapless landing, expect a slightly lesser round out, but during the flare, you can expect to float longer along the runway as your speed decay will be slower".
Also, what about bank & roll?
I came to the conclusion:
- bank is the condition of the aircraft (wings not level with horizon)
- roll is the action of the aircraft when the control wheel is moved left / right - "The aircraft rolls to the right when the control wheel is moved right"; "By moving the control wheel right, you will cause the aircraft to be in a right bank"
Any comments?
"During a flapless landing, expect a slightly lesser round out, but during the flare, you can expect to float longer along the runway as your speed decay will be slower".
Also, what about bank & roll?
I came to the conclusion:
- bank is the condition of the aircraft (wings not level with horizon)
- roll is the action of the aircraft when the control wheel is moved left / right - "The aircraft rolls to the right when the control wheel is moved right"; "By moving the control wheel right, you will cause the aircraft to be in a right bank"
Any comments?
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At the end of the approach you round out (so you don't make a crater in the airfield) into the flare (holding off the ground as long as possible while your speed decays) until touch down.
Bank and roll are what you describe.
Books are good places to start for the basics
I won't recommend any one in particular because I haven't read any on powered flight and only a few on gliding
Bank and roll are what you describe.
Books are good places to start for the basics
I won't recommend any one in particular because I haven't read any on powered flight and only a few on gliding
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Bank is an angle, measured in degrees. The exact definition is rather complicated, but your description captures the idea.
Technically, 'Roll' is the rate at which you are increasing or decreasing the angle of bank. If you measured it, it would be in units of degrees per second.
Technically, 'Roll' is the rate at which you are increasing or decreasing the angle of bank. If you measured it, it would be in units of degrees per second.
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At the end of the approach you round out (so you don't make a crater in the airfield) into the flare (holding off the ground as long as possible
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As I understand it (and, as I said, I'm coming from a glider pilot's perspective), the round out is the transition from the approach glide path to the hold off, which is also known as the flare.
In a glider, the flare is used to fly just a nadge above the ground while excess airspeed, which is required for a safe approach, decays to the point where the wings don't generate enough lift and the aircraft settles gently on the ground. To achieve this, the stick is eased back to increase the angle of attack, compensating for the reducing speed. In my understanding, it is much the same in a powered aircraft. Touching down while still having flying speed is known as "landing on" and is frowned upon in the gliding community. I have heard that some powered aircraft are a bit safer landing on slightly, but the general principle for landing is the same for both classes.
OK, so the approach is steeper in a glider, which is typically 10 degrees, than in a powered aircraft where it is in the order of 3 degrees or so. In both cases though, if the round out is performed too late, there is a danger of flying into the reference point*, hence my reference to making a crater.
*I've done it myself and it wasn't very pleasant, but luckily training gliders are built like the proverbial brick outhouse!
Edit: I've done a little more reading, and it seems that some powered instruction does treat the flare and round out as the same thing. Maybe it's because the approach is steeper in a glider.
In a glider, the flare is used to fly just a nadge above the ground while excess airspeed, which is required for a safe approach, decays to the point where the wings don't generate enough lift and the aircraft settles gently on the ground. To achieve this, the stick is eased back to increase the angle of attack, compensating for the reducing speed. In my understanding, it is much the same in a powered aircraft. Touching down while still having flying speed is known as "landing on" and is frowned upon in the gliding community. I have heard that some powered aircraft are a bit safer landing on slightly, but the general principle for landing is the same for both classes.
OK, so the approach is steeper in a glider, which is typically 10 degrees, than in a powered aircraft where it is in the order of 3 degrees or so. In both cases though, if the round out is performed too late, there is a danger of flying into the reference point*, hence my reference to making a crater.
*I've done it myself and it wasn't very pleasant, but luckily training gliders are built like the proverbial brick outhouse!
Edit: I've done a little more reading, and it seems that some powered instruction does treat the flare and round out as the same thing. Maybe it's because the approach is steeper in a glider.
Last edited by P-MONKE; 3rd Oct 2011 at 16:07. Reason: more information
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What then is the difference between a flare and a hold off?
cheers,
Jake.
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Flare or "hold off"?
My understanding is that the Flare and Hold off are the same thing as described above. "Flare" is the terminology perferred by my instructor. I used to wonder what one did when they rotated. Assuming that this was not another word for a ground loop, I eventually asked my instructor and was told that it was "the point at which teh aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "Take Off". Now I use "rotate" all the time. Think I must be going native with this pilot speak!
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'Round-out' and 'flare'
Hi All,
Let me clear this up once and for all.
When I did my PPL course in 1960, the only term used in the UK was 'round-out'. This described the transition from the approach to the hold-off. Everybody used this same term. However, in the American magazines the term 'flare' was routinely used to describe the same thing.
Subsequently, more and more British pilots went to the USA for their training. These people picked up a lot of American terms and brought them back here. So gradually the word 'flare' began to replace 'round-out'.
A similar situation appurtains with regard to the pronunciation of the word 'altimeter'. We pronounce it Alti-meter, the Americans pronounce it Al-timeter.
So it doen't matter whether you use 'flare' or 'round-out', both are the same thing and both are correct. Although personally, I'm a 'round-out' person myself.
Regards,
BroomstickPilot
Let me clear this up once and for all.
When I did my PPL course in 1960, the only term used in the UK was 'round-out'. This described the transition from the approach to the hold-off. Everybody used this same term. However, in the American magazines the term 'flare' was routinely used to describe the same thing.
Subsequently, more and more British pilots went to the USA for their training. These people picked up a lot of American terms and brought them back here. So gradually the word 'flare' began to replace 'round-out'.
A similar situation appurtains with regard to the pronunciation of the word 'altimeter'. We pronounce it Alti-meter, the Americans pronounce it Al-timeter.
So it doen't matter whether you use 'flare' or 'round-out', both are the same thing and both are correct. Although personally, I'm a 'round-out' person myself.
Regards,
BroomstickPilot
Grob Queen
Not quite correct.
VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.
Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds
Not quite correct.
VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.
Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds
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I can confirm the American usage from that era.
"So flew Dudley - straight at the Earth ...
it became all too obvious he was frozen on this suicidal track and had no intention of flaring out our glide angle ..."
From "Fate is the Hunter", Ernest K Gann, first published 1961.
Brilliant book, BTW.
"So flew Dudley - straight at the Earth ...
it became all too obvious he was frozen on this suicidal track and had no intention of flaring out our glide angle ..."
From "Fate is the Hunter", Ernest K Gann, first published 1961.
Brilliant book, BTW.
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Originally Posted by 500 above
VR, or Rotation speed. The speed at which the airplane’s nosewheel leaves the ground.
Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds
Taken from this link. V speeds – Velocity-speeds
EASA CS 23.51 Take-off speeds
(a) For normal utility and aerobatic category
aeroplanes, the rotation speed VR, is the speed at
which the pilot makes a control input with the
intention of lifting the aeroplane out of contact
with the runway or water surface.
(a) For normal utility and aerobatic category
aeroplanes, the rotation speed VR, is the speed at
which the pilot makes a control input with the
intention of lifting the aeroplane out of contact
with the runway or water surface.
Patowalker - sadly, the days of conventional undercarriages (tailwheel) are all but gone in aviation, with the exception of Buffalo Airways and the like. The term 'rotate' however is still used on those commercial flight decks, as I'm sure you are aware. Rather obviously, the web link posted infers nose wheel aircraft! If I were to air the Chipmunk, Luscombe, Condor, Cap 10 or the like for a bimble around the local area, I would most certainly not be calling V speeds out or filling out TOLD cards... I'll leave that for the aircraft I'm paid to fly professionally.
My point initially was that Grob's instructor has possibly given out incorrect information (or Grob has misunderstood the FI) by stating it's the point at which the aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "take off"... In another thread started by Grob (G force) his instructor had also told him/her it's OK to takeoff with full flaps. Another potential issue or misunderstanding? I quote Grob "However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine."
I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft. However I've always been a believer that tailwheel aircraft produce a better pilot.
My point initially was that Grob's instructor has possibly given out incorrect information (or Grob has misunderstood the FI) by stating it's the point at which the aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "take off"... In another thread started by Grob (G force) his instructor had also told him/her it's OK to takeoff with full flaps. Another potential issue or misunderstanding? I quote Grob "However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine."
I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft. However I've always been a believer that tailwheel aircraft produce a better pilot.
Last edited by 500 above; 3rd Oct 2011 at 21:12.
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Flare, roundout and roll.
Flare - to display conspicuously or ostentatiously. (my landings).
Roundout - How QNH is expressed as a whole number.
Roll - What my wheels do.
Roundout - How QNH is expressed as a whole number.
Roll - What my wheels do.
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I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft
I've never been an advocate of the term 'rotate' in a light aircraft
So much for terminology...
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My point initially was that Grob's instructor has possibly given out incorrect information (or Grob has misunderstood the FI) by stating it's the point at which the aircraft leaves the ground - in other words "take off"... In another thread started by Grob (G force) his instructor had also told him/her it's OK to takeoff with full flaps. Another potential issue or misunderstanding? I quote Grob "However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine."
500 above, Do you honestly think RAF QFIs (or any come to that) would give false info to a student? I admit, it may be my misunderstanding, but hes good at explaining issues! And the full flaps issue... It was the club CFI who sat down with my FI and me and said that t&g with full flap is acceptable. Now, as a student, do you REALLY think i would disagree and argue with a well respected CFI who comes with a dazzling reputation and who has flown all types (including the Me109)...?!
Basically though, fellow pilots, terminology is unimportant; is it not the case that so long as we all lift the wheels off the ground when the aircraft is up to the correct speed, we will continue to take our respective machines safely off the ground, clearing all obstacles and enjoying an uneventful flight?!!
Grob
Nobody would ever suggest to ANY student to ARGUE with an instructor.
Firstly, a few interesting links for you as a G115 student
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_500972.pdf
Note on above link, the first stage of flap is referred to as tKeoff flap by the AAIB
Grappling a Grob: key.Aero, General Aviation
The above link is for the 115e as a review by a ga pilot. It mentions the flap settings.
Do I honestly think RAF QFI's or any come to that (your words) would give false info to a student? Simply, yes! It has been known. Ive known a few (civil) when checking them for standardisation myself. I'm not saying that's what's happened here, but the fact of the matter is if it can happen it will happen or has happened! Now, a landing with full flap may be acceptable, but is a takeoff? Are you on the 115e with flap 60, and electrically operated? (check for the 115 go around report where electric flaps malfunctioned)
Lastly, prune is a great resource to all in aviation. It is not a substitute or sitting with an instructor and receiving a long briefing or ground school. Remember - good habits are formed from the beginning. Bad habits are developed, and are harder to drum out!
Anyway, good luck with the PPL.
Nobody would ever suggest to ANY student to ARGUE with an instructor.
Firstly, a few interesting links for you as a G115 student
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_500972.pdf
Note on above link, the first stage of flap is referred to as tKeoff flap by the AAIB
Grappling a Grob: key.Aero, General Aviation
The above link is for the 115e as a review by a ga pilot. It mentions the flap settings.
Do I honestly think RAF QFI's or any come to that (your words) would give false info to a student? Simply, yes! It has been known. Ive known a few (civil) when checking them for standardisation myself. I'm not saying that's what's happened here, but the fact of the matter is if it can happen it will happen or has happened! Now, a landing with full flap may be acceptable, but is a takeoff? Are you on the 115e with flap 60, and electrically operated? (check for the 115 go around report where electric flaps malfunctioned)
Lastly, prune is a great resource to all in aviation. It is not a substitute or sitting with an instructor and receiving a long briefing or ground school. Remember - good habits are formed from the beginning. Bad habits are developed, and are harder to drum out!
Anyway, good luck with the PPL.
Last edited by 500 above; 4th Oct 2011 at 14:36.